John 8:58

Originally posted by Rajk999

Please do not whine about the length of my response.


So far Christ and Paul are both acknowledging the superiority of God over Christ :
- God is the head of Christ
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God not only expressed Himself in terms of perfect Authority. He also expressed Himself in terms of perfect Submission.


- God is greater than Christ
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In that God became a man to humble Himself and become obedient unto death, and that the death of a cross - Perfect Submission expressed itself in the truth that the Father was "greater".


- God knows of events or things which are not known to Christ
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In that God was incarnate to express Himself in terms of Perfect Submission, He displayed trust, obedience and limitation - characteristics of all men.

He also wept, was tired, was hungry, was surprised at times, was sorrowful, felt pain - even agony, and even cried out "My God, my God, Why have you forsaken Me?"

The Father took the emblem of Perfect Authority and the Son took on the emblem of Perfect Submission.


- Christ will rule for a period and then hand over to God
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Christ ruling is ALREADY things in the hands of God.
The scene of eternity is God IN Christ as the Light shines out from the Lamp in the eternal New Jerusalem.

"And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon that they should shine in it, for the glory of God illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb." (Rev. 21:23)

The shining light is God eternally.
The lamp containing the divine light is the Lamb - the Redeemer - the God-man Jesus Christ.

Those who imagine there is some competitiveness between the Father and the Son are extremely foolish.

Also there is only ONE throne in the scene of eternity "the THRONE [singular] of God and of the Lamb."

And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal proceeding out of the throne [singular] of God and of the Lamb ..." (Rev. 22:1)

Here we have the Trinity.
God the Father as the source of light and the water of life.
God the Son as the Redeemer (the Lamb).
God the Holy Spirit flowing out of the singular throne of God and of the Lamb.

The symbol show the Triune God dispensing Himself in His three-one being into the "city" right down the middle of the street.

"And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb in the middle of its street." (v.1)

The street symbolizing the living and walk of man in eternity.
Saved man walks in the very dispensing of the Triune God.
We walk in the Triune God today in the church age.
This walk in the Triune God extends on into eternity - deeper.


- Christ is a mediator between God and men
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The Father took the emblem of Perfect Authority.
The Son took the emblem of Perfect Obedience and has become the Intercessor. He is able to save man "to the uttermost" because He lives eternally to intercede on behalf of those for whom He died and rose.

"Hence also He is able to save to the uttermost those who come forward to God through Him, since He lives always to intercede for them.

For such a High Priest was also fitting for us, holy, guileless, undefiled, separated from sinners and having become higher than the heavens." (Hebrews 7:25,26)

He is a High Priest, not temporarily, and not only until the close of the millennium. He is a High Priest forever (Heb. 5:6; 7:17).


- Christ said to pray to God .. not to him.
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As the emblem of Perfect Submission it is understandable that He taught to pray to the Father as He did.

Stephen prayed out to the Son -

And they stoned Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!

And kneeling down, he cried out with a loud voice, Lord, do not hold this sin against them. And when he had said this, he feel asleep." (Acts 7:59,60)

Please don't dance around trying to argue that for Stephen to cry out and call on the Lord Jesus, speaking to Jesus, was not prayer. It was prayer.

And the Apostle Paul as well said he petitioned the Lord Jesus three times to remove a certain troubling thorn of discomfort -

"Concerning this I entreated the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And he has said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is perfected in weakness." (2 Cor. 12:8,9a)

Please don't argue that to entreat the Lord is not to pray to the Lord. And in Second Corinthians the Lord is Christ Jesus -

"For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord." ( 2 Cor. 4:5)

Don't condemn believers about praying to, calling to, entreating the Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God.


I quoted several passages which you unable to properly refute.
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They have been refuted if your intent is to argue that Jesus is not God become a man.


All of the above is supported in the Bible and show that Christ is subservient to God.
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Christ being submissive and obedient to the Father does not prove Christ is not God incarnate. It proves that Christ is truly God-man.


Where is the proof that Christ is equal to God?
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Many places - including Isaiah 9:6.

Two tracks are there. The child born is called Mighty God.
The Son given is called Eternal Father.

Originally posted by josephw
Are you in league with robbie? Seems you're as guilty as you say the rest of us are. Watch where you point your finger Rajk! Makes you look like a hypocrite.

You and robbie suffer from retentive issues. The reason you are unable to understand who Jesus is is because you follow the interpretations of men rather than allowing God's Word to speak for itself. ...[text shortened]... are doing nothing short of resisting the Holy Spirit, which teaches us the truths of God's Word.

Are you making more unsubstantiated claims Joseph? Was being called out after claiming that the King James version was the most accurate because it was founded on the best manuscripts not enough for you? Were we not embarrassed by your complete ignorance and your inability to substantiate any of your arrogant claims? Perhaps we shall call you to task again and ask you to substantiate these claims? Let us take a look at them.

You say Jesus is equal to God, the Bible has Jesus saying that the Father is greater than him. Who are we to believe, you or the Bible? Which verse have we obscured to reach our conclusion and which doctrine of men are we following?

Either you will substantiate these claims or you will prove once again that you have not the slightest idea of what you're talking about and think that you can simply make up lies to attack people with because quite frankly you are empty and devoid of anything else.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Are you making more unsubstantiated claims Joseph? Was being called out after claiming that the King James version was the most accurate because it was founded on the best manuscripts not enough for you? Were we not embarrassed by your complete ignorance and your inability to substantiate any of your arrogant claims? Perhaps we shall call you to task ...[text shortened]... e up lies to attack people with because quite frankly you are empty and devoid of anything else.

The Son is equal to God because the Father and the Son are both God along with the Holy Spirit. One person being considered greater than another does not make either of them any less God any more that a human person any less human because that person is in subjection to another person. 😏

There are many verses in the Holy Bible that says Jesus is equal to God. Perhaps you can quote one that says Jesus is not equal to God. So far you have failed to do so.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The Son is equal to God because the Father and the Son are both God along with the Holy Spirit. One person being considered greater than another does not make either of them any less God any more that a human person any less human because that person is in subjection to another person. 😏

There are many verses in the Holy Bible that says Jesus is equal ...[text shortened]... Perhaps you can quote one that says Jesus is not equal to God. So far you have failed to do so.

Rajk just quoted you one, what is it about, 'the father is greater than I', that you fail to comprehend? I have never read in the Bible that the father and the son are both God almighty and I see that you have failed to provide anything other than your silly opinion as evidence. Oh well.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Rajk just quoted you one, what is it about, 'the father is greater than I', that you fail to comprehend? I have never read in the Bible that the father and the son are both God almighty and I see that you have failed to provide anything other than your silly opinion as evidence. Oh well.

That does not say Jesus is not equal to God. Try again.

Originally posted by RJHinds
That does not say Jesus is not equal to God. Try again.

Yes it does, Jesus says 'the father is greater than I', if the father is greater than Jesus then they cannot be equal. I dont need to try again and I certainly wont be arguing against your stupidity.

Here are the facts, Jesus says the father is greater, you say he is equal, the pharisees and those wanting to kill Jesus also said he was equal, now there is a pattern emerging, the Bible on one hand and you and the pharisees in agreement on the other.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Yes it does, Jesus says 'the father is greater than I', if the father is greater then Jesus then they cannot be equal. I dont need to try again and I certainly wont be arguing against your stupidity.

'The Near Genius' is not an appropriate line for RJH.

Originally posted by Rajk999
'The Near Genius' is not an appropriate line for RJH.

yes he should change his name to the rear end of horse genius.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Yes it does, Jesus says 'the father is greater than I', if the father is greater than Jesus then they cannot be equal. I dont need to try again and I certainly wont be arguing against your stupidity.

Here are the facts, Jesus says the father is greater, you say he is equal, the pharisees and those wanting to kill Jesus also said he was equal, n ...[text shortened]... s a pattern emerging, the Bible on one hand and you and the pharisees in agreement on the other.

I did not say Jesus was equal to the Father, I said the scriptures say Jesus is in the form of God and equal to God.

For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

(John 5:18 NASB)

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God

(Philippians 2:6 KJV)

In this particular case, Jesus is not denying to be equal with God just because He says the Father is greater than I. Jesus has the fullness of the Godhead dwelling in Him bodily (Col. 2:9) and He is in the form of God and does not think it robbery to be equal with God (Phil. 2:6) by making Himself equal with God (John 5:18).

He was in the beginning with God and He was God (John 1:1).

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

(1 Timothy 3:16 KJV)

HalleluYaH !!! Praise the LORD! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Originally posted by RJHinds
I did not say Jesus was equal to the Father, I said the scriptures say Jesus is in the form of God and equal to God.

For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was [b]calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

(John 5:18 NASB)

W ...[text shortened]... into glory.

(1 Timothy 3:16 KJV)

HalleluYaH !!! Praise the LORD! Holy! Holy! Holy![/b]

Jesus says, 'the father is greater than I', Paul says that 'the head of Jesus is God', Paul also states that Jesus 'did not even consider that he should be equal to God'. The only people here that would have us believe that Jesus is equal to God are you and Jesus enemies. Why do you hate Jesus Hinds? What bad thing has he done to you?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Are you making more unsubstantiated claims Joseph? Was being called out after claiming that the King James version was the most accurate because it was founded on the best manuscripts not enough for you? Were we not embarrassed by your complete ignorance and your inability to substantiate any of your arrogant claims? Perhaps we shall call you to task ...[text shortened]... e up lies to attack people with because quite frankly you are empty and devoid of anything else.

I've read this post several times because all it conjours up in my mind is Vincent Price in Witchfinder General. For those who know Price, try reading this post by Robbie and imagine Vincent Price orrating.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Jesus says, 'the father is greater than I', Paul says that 'the head of Jesus is God', Paul also states that Jesus 'did not even consider that he should be equal to God'. The only people here that would have us believe that Jesus is equal to God are you and Jesus enemies. Why do you hate Jesus Hinds? What bad thing has he done to you?

If the HEAD of Jesus is GOD, then that must mean Jesus is GOD. Jesus must act as GOD because His HEAD is GOD. How can He do otherwise?

And please don't quote from the Watchtower corrupted version you use to spread you JW propaganda about Jesus being the archangel Michael. And Jesus did not even consider --- what evil crap. 😏

HalleluYaHshua ! Praise the LORD!

Originally posted by RJHinds
If the HEAD of Jesus is GOD, then that must mean Jesus is GOD. Jesus must act as GOD because His HEAD is GOD. How can He do otherwise?

And please don't quote from the Watchtower corrupted version you use to spread you JW propaganda about Jesus being the archangel Michael. 😏

HalleluYaHshua ! Praise the LORD!

bwahahah, lets take your assertion highlighted below and follow its logic,

If the HEAD of Jesus is GOD, then that must mean Jesus is GOD - R.J.DonkeysbeHinds

therefore if the head of woman is man, that means that a woman is a man according to your logic and continuing on, if the head of a man is Christ, that means that a man is Jesus.

heeehaw! heehaw!

Any Bible can be used to overturn your thoroughly silly assertions, in fact they are so devoid of reason they overturn themselves.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
bwahahah, lets take your assertion highlighted below and follow its logic,

If the HEAD of Jesus is GOD, then that must mean Jesus is GOD - R.J.DonkeysbeHinds

therefore if the head of woman is man, that means that a woman is a man according to your logic and continuing on, if the head of a man is Christ, that means that a man is Jesus.

heeeh ...[text shortened]... your thoroughly silly assertions, in fact they are so devoid of reason they overturn themselves.

I said:

Jesus must act as GOD because His HEAD is GOD.

In like manner the woman will act according to the will of the man if the man is the head of the women. Also the man will act according to the will of Christ if the head of the man is Christ. And finally, Christ will act according to the will of God if the head of Christ is God. God is to be all in all because Christ is God. 😏

Originally posted by RJHinds
I said:

Jesus must act as GOD because His HEAD is GOD.

In like manner the woman will act according to the will of the man if the man is the head of the women. Also the man will act according to the will of Christ if the head of the man is Christ. And finally, Christ will act according to the will of God if the head of Christ is God. God is to be all in all because Christ is God. 😏

If the HEAD of Jesus is GOD, then that must mean Jesus is GOD - R.J.DonkeysbeHinds

That is what you said donkey and no amount of weaseling out of it can help you. I can never take anything you say seriously, you're just too spangled for it. Joseph and Sonship claimed something equally unreasonable, Jesus works and his father works therefore that makes them equal, you claim that if the head of Jesus is God that makes him God. No one should have to listen to such lack of reason.