09 Jun 15
2 edits
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (Page 5)John 17:5, “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” He claimed preexistence in explicit and unmistakable terms. John 16:26-28, “In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf; for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father. I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father.” Our Lord’s first appearance on earth was not when born of His virgin mother. Every other man in history entered life as the result of a biological process and as a new being, but the Lord Jesus knew neither beginning of days nor end of life (Heb. 7:3).
robbie, it's my hope that this commentary will shed additional light on the significance of the statement in John 8:58 and would encourage you to read its remaining pages. If you wish, I'll be glad to present them here in three installments. Regards, Bob
The Preexistence of Jesus Christ
"John 8:58, “Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, ...[text shortened]... pages)
http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/doctrines/christology/preexistence_of_christ.pdf
The Lord appears many times in the Old Testament and is called the “Angel of the Lord.” These appearances in the Old Testament are called in theology, “theophanies” or “Christophanies.” A “theophany” or “Christophany” is a theological term used to refer to either a visible or auditory manifestation of the Son of God before His becoming a man permanently in Bethlehem. Genesis 3:8, “They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and is wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.” Genesis 32:29-30, “Then Jacob asked him and said, ‘Please tell me your name.’ But he said, ‘Why is it that you ask my name?’ And he blessed him there. So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, ‘I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved.’” Exodus 3:2, “The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed.” Exodus 19:18-20, “Now Mount Sinai was all in smoke because the LORD descended upon it in fire; and its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked violently. When the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and God answered him with thunder.
The LORD came down on Mount Sinai, to the top of the mountain; and the LORD called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up.” Josh 5:13-15, “Now it came about when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing opposite him with his sword drawn in his hand, and Joshua went to him and said to him, Are you for us or for our adversaries? He said, ‘No; rather I indeed come now as captain of the host of the LORD.’ And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and bowed down, and said to him, ‘What has my lord to say to his servant? The captain of the LORD'S host said to Joshua, ‘Remove your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.’ And Joshua did so.” Daniel 3:26, “He said, ‘Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!’”
Old Testament Prophets Testimony of the Preexistence of Christ: The Old Testament abounds in references to our Lord’s preexistence or preincarnate state. The first appears in Genesis 1:1 where He is presented as the Creator of the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” “In the beginning” refers to eternity past when there was only the Trinity and no creation or creatures. A comparison of Genesis 1:1 with other Scripture clearly teaches that all of creation is the work of the second Person of the Trinity, God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Colossians 1:15-17, “He is the image..." -Pastor/Teacher Bill Wenstrom (first 3 of 9) http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/doctrines/christology/preexistence_of_christ.pdf
09 Jun 15
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyScripture clearly teaches that all of creation is the work of the second Person of the Trinity,
John 17:5, “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” He claimed preexistence in explicit and unmistakable terms. John 16:26-28, “In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf; for the Father Himself loves you, because you hav ...[text shortened]... of 9) http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/doctrines/christology/preexistence_of_christ.pdf
The above is unsubstantiated at least and an attempt to impose a dogma not explicitly stated in scripture where none exists in the original but thats the trinity for you. Interesting is the idea though that the Christ is termed the 'angel of the Lord', for sonship and divesgeester have often (through ignorance) attempted to construe that this idea is not Biblical.
09 Jun 15
Originally posted by robbie carrobieNowhere does Christ ever claim that he is the archangel Michael. So never use that argument again to defend your position that Christ is not God.
Scripture clearly teaches that all of creation is the work of the second Person of the Trinity,
The above is unsubstantiated at least and an attempt to impose a dogma not explicitly stated in scripture where none exists in the original but thats the trinity for you. Interesting is the idea though that the Christ is termed the 'angel of the Lord', ...[text shortened]... ivesgeester have often (through ignorance) attempted to construe that this idea is not Biblical.
Michael is a completely separate and individually identified being to any other person, deity or other angel.
The "angel of the lord" could be the essence of and same entity as "the LORD" I will readily agree with you on that, but as you well know, in the OT the title "LORD" refers to Jehovah. So that puts the ball squarely back in your court.
So, is the "angel of the Lord" Jesus, as you are saying here, or is it Jehovah?
09 Jun 15
Originally posted by robbie carrobie"Sure why not at least you are sticking to the script." robbie, are we still on plan to agree to disagree for now and then address any differences after the whole "script" has been presented?
Scripture clearly teaches that all of creation is the work of the second Person of the Trinity,
The above is unsubstantiated at least and an attempt to impose a dogma not explicitly stated in scripture where none exists in the original but thats the trinity for you. Interesting is the idea though that the Christ is termed the 'angel of the Lord', ...[text shortened]... ivesgeester have often (through ignorance) attempted to construe that this idea is not Biblical.
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Originally posted by Grampy BobbyGrampy Thanks for this great contribution from brother Wenstrom.
John 17:5, “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” He claimed preexistence in explicit and unmistakable terms. John 16:26-28, “In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf; for the Father Himself loves you, because you hav ...[text shortened]... of 9) http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/doctrines/christology/preexistence_of_christ.pdf
As for Robbie, I am afraid he has had way beyond "the first and second admonition". But the paragraphs on the theophonies of the pre-incarnated Christ are clear to me.
The JWs will acknowledge Christ before His birth. But true to Arianism, they will not acknowledge Christ in His eternal preexistence. The fact of the matter is that Jehovah the uncreated is the First and the Last and the resurrected man Jesus declares the exact same thing.
Jehovah Witness polytheism calls for more than one God and more than one "the First and the Last". This is dreadful.
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09 Jun 15
2 edits
Originally posted by divegeester
Well if you mean by online correspondence yes.
What is it you want to find out?
Why do you feel that I am ashamed of what I believe just because
I can't give you a link to a website with a list of beliefs to which I subscribe?
Are you looking for something to "get" on me?
Are you looking for something to "get" on me?
Yes and No.
Thanks for your references.
Seeing that you respond to any talk about the Trinity with the regularity and swiftness of a hunting Nile crocodile you shouldn't mind if I look into where you get this stuff.
09 Jun 15
Originally posted by sonshipWhere I get what stuff? Sorry I'm not sure what you are after. When I talk about my stance on your belief in this trinity doctrine I always reference scripture.Are you looking for something to "get" on me?
Yes and No.
Thanks for your references.
Seeing that you respond to any talk about the Trinity with the regularity and swiftness of a hunting Nile crocodile you shouldn't mind if I look into where you get this stuff.
09 Jun 15
Originally posted by sonshipIts not true to anything other than scripture. Jehovah's witnesses did not write the sacred text, they and anyone else who comes to scripture free of dogma and religious bias will acknowledge that Christ is a part of the creation, that is why the Bible says, 'of the creation', with respect to Christ.
Grampy Thanks for this great contribution from brother Wenstrom.
As for Robbie, I am afraid he has had way beyond [b]"the first and second admonition". But the paragraphs on the theophonies of the pre-incarnated Christ are clear to me.
The JWs will acknowledge Christ before His birth. But true to Arianism, they will not acknowledge Christ i ...[text shortened]... calls for more than one God and more than one "the First and the Last". This is dreadful.[/b]
09 Jun 15
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobiePlease say that again... that you are "free of dogma and religious bias".
Its not true to anything other than scripture. Jehovah's witnesses did not write the sacred text, they and anyone else who comes to scripture free of dogma and religious bias will acknowledge that Christ is a part of the creation, that is why the Bible says, 'of the creation', with respect to Christ.