Just wondering...

Originally posted by amannion
I'm a science teacher and one of the classes I teach to secondary students is Astrophysics - a very cut down and simplified overview of space science. One of the areas we cover is the search for extraterrestrial intelligence, and I think there are some parallels to draw here.
A classic argument for the existence of many alien civilisations goes something l ...[text shortened]... s that there is no creator.
You may feel comfort in believing otherwise, so go ahead ...

We don't get anything in nature, there are many limits and boundaries. That doesn't strike me as the work of a creator, since presumably a creator could do anything.

Your reasoning is flawed on two levels. (1) It is obviously untrue that we don't get anything in nature. Ich pointed out one: trees provide us with O2 to breathe. In fact, it could be said that nature provides us with everything we need. (2) Limits and boundaries in nature may just as easily affirm the existence of a creator. For instance, earth's magnetic field: If it were much weaker, our planet would be devastated by cosmic radiation. If it were much stronger, we would be devastated by severe electromagnetic storms. Or consider protons: If they were a little bigger or a little smaller, we would not exist (because atoms could not form the molecules we require). They just happen to be 1836 times larger than electrons. Of all the possible variables, how did protons end up being just the right size?

You may feel comfort in believing otherwise, so go ahead ...

Why do you insist on insulting Ich? As far as I can tell, from what information he provided, his interest in the possibility of a creator is based on reason not emotion. Why suggest otherwise? Are you that threatened by intellectual honesty? Would you like it if I suggested that the only reason you chose atheism is because it felt more comfortable than having to submit to an unknown variable like Almighty God and his expectation of obedience? Let's not malign each other.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Reading up on the four religions that interest me most - Buddhist, Hindu, Christianity and Islamic..."

You will find in Christianity two very important things the others do not emphasize. One is that we are sinners separated from God by sin. The other is that Jesus is the saviour.

You'll have to come to terms with your own condition first. You' t "fix" the problem. They will only mask the symptoms. They cannot "cure" the disease.[/b]

The emphasis you noted is only that situation in context.
Many religions and ideals show a separation from (their potential, the universe, God) due to our "sin nature"
A principle of Hinduism, for example, emphasizes a union with Brahman (the creator, supreme deity, whatever) and that we are all essentially little manifestations of Brahman- Atman. The reason this connection is not seen is because we are subjugated by sensations and experiences in a world of illusion.
Buddhism holds a lot of similar ideals, but in a bit more fatalistic mannerism essentially saying our suffering is because the universe is playing itself out. We are bound with these bodies and a sense of possession. Our expectations make us suffer, our wants our desires et cetera. Our savior under this guise is our awareness.

And what about a lot of the other religions that have Christ figures? The mediterranean religions are filled with Jesus figures (Horus is essentially the same character but from an earlier, Egyptian religion)
There are a lot of universalities across the religions and ideals and easy to see why. We're humans with similar body and mind makeups exposed to the same things of the world. Just because you have a connection with a different name for your beliefs (or you deity) doesn't make it the only legitimate path.

Just to be clear I'm not searching for a cure or to comfort myself that when people die I will see them all at the Pearly White Gates simply exploring the possibilites and the way I'm coming to see it is: there is no harm in me personally exploring my own dimensions and perhaps believing in something else - I kow that no-one is suggesting that there is harm in my beliefs just expressing that! I'd never considered the points of earth limitations so thanks for bringing that up - this is why I posted this on here, to get repsonses and have new ideas posted that I had not considered beofre and therefore increase my overall understanding and every aspect.

This may cause some resentment but this is also for me to understand : I seem able to accept the reasons and principles of two of the religions more that Islam or Christianity as previously mentioned. No offense intended - perhaps everyone I've ever come across that's Christian has put too much emphasis on the 7 day Creation and God being some amazing being that will save me if I believe and curse me if I don't - that's basically what I have been told.

I don't know about my religion - I want to, I really want to explore the options and see if at the end something hits me and I can wake up every morning and go to bed every night thinking that there is something. I'm not saying I crave a religion or want to believe something else exists - if after everything I don't think there is then that's fine. I don't want to believe due to a death and find a source of comfort, I don't want to kid myself. I just want to know how I can try to explore it and find the answer.


I'm sorry if this is really deep. Just my thoughts spurting out on this post!


another thing - I've tried meditating putting on this song and humming along

YouTube

or the sanskrit heart chant but I don't know how to reach the peace - any ideas meditators??? I would go to classes but I don't really want to plus there isn't any nearby.


ok so still thinking about the whole thing - thanks to everyone for the advice, hope it continues unless you've died of boredom for my exceptionally long post.


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itchy bin

Originally posted by ich binimKopfweg
Just to be clear I'm not searching for a cure or to comfort myself that when people die I will see them all at the Pearly White Gates simply exploring the possibilites and the way I'm coming to see it is: there is no harm in me personally exploring my own dimensions and perhaps believing in something else - I kow that no-one is suggesting that there ...[text shortened]... s you've died of boredom for my exceptionally long post.


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itchy bin

I'm enjoying your thread-one of the better ones.
You dont need anyone to teach you meditation. A few simple principles are all you need . A straight back. Eyes at half-mast(will come with practice). Let your mind be free but dont hold onto thoughts. If thoughts arise do not try to make them go away they will go away by themselves. You nay or may not want a mantra to recite...I've done it both ways. Both can be effective.

I think you are realizing that there are no certainties in this world and hence your existensial spiel. I like it. Thnx for being honest.

I have thrown my whole being into meditation for days or weeks at a time. I have learnt and I have suffered.
I now take on a more balanced approach🙂

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I'm enjoying your thread-one of the better ones.
You dont need anyone to teach you meditation. A few simple principles are all you need . A straight back. Eyes at half-mast(will come with practice). Let your mind be free but dont hold onto thoughts. If thoughts arise do not try to make them go away they will go away by themselves. You nay or may not wa ...[text shortened]... weeks at a time. I have learnt and I have suffered.
I now take on a more balanced approach🙂

😀

I've set up a little shrine - incense sticks and nice stuff to make me happy bla bla bla. Listening to rain was quite helpful.


"Thnx for being honest." well I don't see any point in wasting my time posting anything on here if it isn't true or what I think ,so I'll tell it how it is, what I believe and consider every point. I not a fan of treating people like mushrooms, or myself for that matter! I've just sat and relaxed for a while so getting there - slowly but surely.

continue to enjoy all, whilst I soak your brains out - now that sounds weird!


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Originally posted by ich binimKopfweg
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I've set up a little shrine - incense sticks and nice stuff to make me happy bla bla bla. Listening to rain was quite helpful.


"Thnx for being honest." well I don't see any point in wasting my time posting anything on here if it isn't true or what I think ,so I'll tell it how it is, what I believe and consider every point. I not a fan of ...[text shortened]...

continue to enjoy all, whilst I soak your brains out - now that sounds weird!


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Our brains need some soaking from time to time so...thank you,I guess. Its hard to be happy about losing your ego,but I'll make a smiley anyway

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Originally posted by karoly aczel
Our brains need some soaking from time to time so...thank you,I guess. Its hard to be happy about losing your ego,but I'll make a smiley anyway

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haha, the losing ego thing could start a whole new thread about how the ego is not connected to the brain and it's part of the soul etc - but I won't as it will dominate my insignificant thread!

so any new help?


general question - not chucking all that expectation solely on you karoly aczel!


😀 (I put a grin all the time - just to make it more friendly!)

Originally posted by ich binimKopfweg
haha, the losing ego thing could start a whole new thread about how the ego is not connected to the brain and it's part of the soul etc - but I won't as it will dominate my insignificant thread!

so any new help?


general question - not chucking all that expectation solely on you karoly aczel!


😀 (I put a grin all the time - just to make it more friendly!)

Thats the thing with me-I'm always ready to offer help when asked,otherwise I can pass you by like a ship in the night.
I believe I'm on the right track even though this track leads to a dead end. So that is why I answer.
The only furthur 'help' I will give for now is that the centre of your being is at the pit of your stomach. Whenever you can remember try to focus your 'intent' there. Thats your centre. Thats where the openning of the secret lies. We are not this body so focussing on the centre of what you are not somehow takes you away from a lot of the external distractions that are not as important as they always seem.
There is always a way for the true seeker.
Peace man 🙂

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]We don't get anything in nature, there are many limits and boundaries. That doesn't strike me as the work of a creator, since presumably a creator could do anything.

Your reasoning is flawed on two levels. (1) It is obviously untrue that we don't get anything in nature. Ich pointed out one: trees provide us with O2 to breathe. ...[text shortened]... variable like Almighty God and his expectation of obedience? Let's not malign each other.[/b]

Your reasoning is flawed on two levels. (1) It is obviously untrue that we don't get anything in nature. Ich pointed out one: trees provide us with O2 to breathe. In fact, it could be said that nature provides us with everything we need.
I think you haven't parsed this sentence correctly. Probably what was meant was that we don't just get any old thing in nature, there are parameters which govern what is possible. This statement has nothing to do with what nature provides.

Here is the quote:

"We don't get anything in nature, there are many limits and boundaries."

(2) Limits and boundaries in nature may just as easily affirm the existence of a creator.
But in a shocking switchback manoeuvre, you use the intended meaning, to which you were apparently hitherto blind, as an opportunity to deliver a cosmic fine tuner argument. Smooth...

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]We don't get anything in nature, there are many limits and boundaries. That doesn't strike me as the work of a creator, since presumably a creator could do anything.

Your reasoning is flawed on two levels. (1) It is obviously untrue that we don't get anything in nature. Ich pointed out one: trees provide us with O2 to breathe. ...[text shortened]... variable like Almighty God and his expectation of obedience? Let's not malign each other.[/b]

I think you missed the point of my emphasis on the word 'anything'. What I meant is that while we get many things, not everything is possible. We don't get just anything, we get a wide variety of things but these have their limits.
There are many examples of this 'just right' phenomena. If our universe did not have these 'just right' scenarios then we wouldn't be here to discuss them, so a trivial response to your point is that these 'just right' phenomena exist simply in our universe because we're here and wouldn't be if it were otherwise - essentially the Anthropic Principle.
A more interesting response is that the laws of nature and of the universe may be constrained to these 'just right' levels by their very nature. Paul Davies wrote an interesting book on just this area - The Goldilocks Enigma (I think) - and it's worth taking a look through.

As to the supposed insult - perhaps this is another example of text being unable to convey nuance. My final statement was not intended as an insult. A number of my own family find comfort in their Christian beliefs. I have no problem with this and certainly don't insult their beliefs or need for them - although we have some great arguments when I visit them for dinner.

Originally posted by ich binimKopfweg
haha, the losing ego thing could start a whole new thread about how the ego is not connected to the brain and it's part of the soul etc - but I won't as it will dominate my insignificant thread!

so any new help?


general question - not chucking all that expectation solely on you karoly aczel!


😀 (I put a grin all the time - just to make it more friendly!)

I'll try to help too, if you want. I doubt you'll like it though.

Originally posted by Lord Shark
I'll try to help too, if you want. I doubt you'll like it though.

I want everyone's help - you may be pleasantly surprised sharky!


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Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]We don't get anything in nature, there are many limits and boundaries. That doesn't strike me as the work of a creator, since presumably a creator could do anything.

Your reasoning is flawed on two levels. (1) It is obviously untrue that we don't get anything in nature. Ich pointed out one: trees provide us with O2 to breathe. variable like Almighty God and his expectation of obedience? Let's not malign each other.[/b]

Can I just point out here that I, ich, am female,

thanks!

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ok now strictly back to spirituality!


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Originally posted by ich binimKopfweg
I want everyone's help - you may be pleasantly surprised sharky!


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I might.

Where are you in your head, I wonder. Gone sailing maybe.

Anyway, I wonder what you think about how we know what we know. Could you outline that? It might help.

Originally posted by Lord Shark
I might.

Where are you in your head, I wonder. Gone sailing maybe.

Anyway, I wonder what you think about how we know what we know. Could you outline that? It might help.

why does it have to be anywhere?
what does it matter how you know what you know - I'm going for logic/emotion/opinion/experience/books!

I think you should help me

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now the post is vastly improved