1. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    18 Aug '06 01:11
    Originally posted by whodey
    Some may have been Deists, however, there is no doubt that Christianity was a powerful influence within the society at the time. In fact, it is arguable that this Christian influence is why many were Deists and not atheists.

    What other references am I talking about? Did you know that the Continental Congress called for a day of fasting and prayer within ...[text shortened]... e world without God and the Bible."

    I could go on, but I think you get the point.
    You could go on but you'd be just increasing your wrongness. The revolution was fought mainly because of Thomas Paine's writings and he certainly wasn't a christian, neither was George Washington , at least according to the minister of the Anglican Church he stopped going to.
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    18 Aug '06 01:341 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    The only time people get up in arms about this, however, is when it is percieved that this moral code is related to religious belief in some way.
    Because the correct reason for not acting wrongly is because it is morally wrong to do so - not because god says we shouldn't.

    Legislation should be based on this truth.
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    18 Aug '06 15:59
    Originally posted by dottewell
    Because the correct reason for not acting wrongly is because it is morally wrong to do so - not because god says we shouldn't.

    Legislation should be based on this truth.
    What is truth?
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    18 Aug '06 16:04
    Originally posted by whodey
    What is truth?
    We've had this conversation elsewhere. You don't need god to guarantee truth, including moral truth.
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    18 Aug '06 16:111 edit
    Originally posted by frogstomp
    Explain this then.

    ARTICLE 11

    As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,4 - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it ing from religious opinions ???
    isn't that what you are saying they made the laws from?
    I am fully aware, froggy, that the US in no way sponsers a particular religion. After all, we are not a theocracy. The founding Fathers also did not want a state sponsered church as England had. They wanted to avoid the abuses associated with the government and the church being in collusion. However, to say that Christianity was not the predominate religion of the time of our founding fathers is ridculous. What then was the majority religion? Hinduism perhaps? Ignore the posts of our founding fathers making delcarations of faith if you desire.
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    18 Aug '06 16:141 edit
    Originally posted by dottewell
    We've had this conversation elsewhere. You don't need god to guarantee truth, including moral truth.
    If I say that truth and morality do not exist and is merely a man-made construct, at least in a philisophical/spiritual context, who is to say I am wrong? Maybe I think it is good to steal, kill, etc. Society may disagree, unless of coarse I can convince them that I am right. Slavery was considered "OK" back the in the 1800's in the Southern US. Who is to say they were wrong?
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    18 Aug '06 16:172 edits
    Originally posted by frogstomp
    You could go on but you'd be just increasing your wrongness. The revolution was fought mainly because of Thomas Paine's writings and he certainly wasn't a christian, neither was George Washington , at least according to the minister of the Anglican Church he stopped going to.
    So old George decided to not go to the Anglican church? I guess that proves he was not a Christian. LOL. As far as Thomas Paine goes, I never said everyone was a Christian. However, to say it was not the prevalent religion influencing the society in which they lived is proposterous.
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    18 Aug '06 16:22
    Originally posted by whodey
    If I say that truth and morality do not exist and is merely a man-made construct, at least in a philisophical/spiritual context, who is to say I am wrong? Maybe I think it is good to steal, kill, etc. Society may disagree, unless of coarse I can convince them that I am right. Slavery was considered "OK" back the in the 1800's in the Southern US. Who is to say they were wrong?
    As I've said, we've had this discussion. I came at it from a Wittgensteinian point of view; bbarr came at it from another point of view. I'm sure you remember.
  9. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    18 Aug '06 20:15
    Originally posted by whodey
    So old George decided to not go to the Anglican church? I guess that proves he was not a Christian. LOL. As far as Thomas Paine goes, I never said everyone was a Christian. However, to say it was not the prevalent religion influencing the society in which they lived is proposterous.
    It might have been prevalent among the masses , although not nearly as prevalent as you christians seem to think, which I suspect that that idea came from hollywood where all the colonists were good christians.
    I really don't know the statistical abstract of early America and I doubt if you know it either.What I do know is the writings of Paine and HE was a Deist and his writings tipped the balance between God Save the King and God Damn the King. Maybe if some christian writer was at Valley Forge writing something like " these are the times that try mens souls,,,," I might be willing to say the revoultion was a christian one, but it was a Deist, a Deist who incidently wrote Common Cause, that inflamatory document that changed a bunch of colonial gripers into a revolutionary movement.
  10. Standard memberno1marauder
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    18 Aug '06 20:243 edits
    Originally posted by whodey
    Who said anything about a religious group forcing their beliefs on others? After all, did the founding Fathers force us to believe in Jesus Christ and have a state sponsered church? No they did not. What I am saying, however, is that ALL laws are based upon a moral code of some kind. The moral code of Christianity was a huge supporting factor in how our d haps you view the morality of secular humanism to be superior to that of our Founding Fathers?
    Since the basic "moral code of Christianity" is the same as the basic Natural Law moral code that every society has, this proves nothing. The Christianity most of the Framers believed in is nothing like the Christianity you believe in, BTW. And the amount of influence that they wanted Christianity to have over society was far less than what you desire (with a few exceptions).
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    18 Aug '06 22:361 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Since the basic "moral code of Christianity" is the same as the basic Natural Law moral code that every society has, this proves nothing. The Christianity most of the Framers believed in is nothing like the Christianity you believe in, BTW. And the amount of influence that they wanted Christianity to have over society was far less than what you desire (with a few exceptions).
    There may be similarities in "moral law" around the world, but could this not be attributalbe to an innate conscience in regards to a Christian perspective?

    Another question would be, were there not differences between the nation the Founding Fathers created and the nations of the world during that time? It seems many of their ideas regarding government and religion were cutting edge up and until that time. Considering that many of them had a Christian/Diest theology, is this not attributable to those theologies?

    My last question is, what Christianity are you referring to that the Framers believed in verses Christians of today? I have no problems with how the Framers set up our government. It does concern me, however, that the intended prohibition of a state sponsered religion has come to mean seperation of church and state. For example, as long as government does not sponser a particular religion, a child should be allowed to pray in school if they desire, manger scenes should be allowed to be displayed on public grounds, and the ten commandments should be allowed to remain visible in our court rooms.
  12. Standard memberBigDogg
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    18 Aug '06 23:40
    Originally posted by whodey
    For example, as long as government does not sponser a particular religion, a child should be allowed to pray in school if they desire, manger scenes should be allowed to be displayed on public grounds, and the ten commandments should be allowed to remain visible in our court rooms.
    Putting the ten commandments in courtrooms is gov't sponsorship of a religion. These days, you may also assume that judges will not just hang up a simple piece of paper, but will also invest taxpayer $$ in building a fancy sculpture with the commandments engraved in it. I'm sure people of other faiths love the idea of paying for it.

    The 10C's really have no place in a court of law. Many of them are contradictory with US law, or simply out of date in today's times. For example:

    1.Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
    Goes against freedom of religion.

    2.Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above.
    Clearly outdated and irrelevant to modern times.

    3.Thou shalt not swear falsely by the name of the LORD.
    Clearly legal in the US, given old Bruce Willis movies.

    4.Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.
    Also outdated, unless you consider watching NFL football to be holy.

    5.Thou shalt honor your father and your mother.
    Clearly not mandatory in the US, as "Married with Children" showed.

    It is only in the last half of the commandments that we get any kind of agreement with our laws. Murder and theft are clearly illegal, and a case can be made that adultery (divorce court), false witness (perjury), covetousness (planning or intent to obtain other people's property) carry legally enforceable penalties.

    A defendant in court shouldn't be tasked with or pressured into keeping additional laws outside of the US code, laws that may or may not be compatible with his/her own personal beliefs.
  13. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    19 Aug '06 00:09
    Originally posted by whodey
    There may be similarities in "moral law" around the world, but could this not be attributalbe to an innate conscience in regards to a Christian perspective?

    Another question would be, were there not differences between the nation the Founding Fathers created and the nations of the world during that time? It seems many of their ideas regarding government a ...[text shortened]... blic grounds, and the ten commandments should be allowed to remain visible in our court rooms.
    In gonna let Thomas Paine answer your thread:

    THE Writer of this, is one of those few, who never dishonors religion either by ridiculing, or cavilling at any denomination whatsoever. To God, and not to man, are all men accountable on the score of religion. Wherefore, this epistle is not so properly addressed to you as a religious, but as a political body, dabbling in matters, which the professed Quietude of your Principles instruct you not to meddle with.
    As you have, without a proper authority for so doing, put yourselves in the place of the whole body of the Quakers, so, the writer of this, in order to be on an equal rank with yourselves, is under the necessity, of putting himself in the place of all those, who, approve the very writings and principles, against which, your testimony is directed: And he hath chosen their singular situation, in order, that you might discover in him that presumption of character which you cannot see in yourselves. For neither he nor you can have any claim or title to Political Representation

    for the rest of this from Common Sense :

    http://www.bartleby.com/133/6.html
  14. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    19 Aug '06 00:24
    Originally posted by whodey
    There may be similarities in "moral law" around the world, but could this not be attributalbe to an innate conscience in regards to a Christian perspective?

    Another question would be, were there not differences between the nation the Founding Fathers created and the nations of the world during that time? It seems many of their ideas regarding government a ...[text shortened]... blic grounds, and the ten commandments should be allowed to remain visible in our court rooms.
    this is also from Common Cause:

    For were the impulses of conscience clear, uniform, and irresistibly obeyed, man would need no other lawgiver; but that not being the case, he finds it necessary to surrender up a part of his property to furnish means for the protection of the rest; and this he is induced to do by the same prudence which in every other case advises him out of two evils to choose the least. Wherefore, security being the true design and end of government, it unanswerably follows that whatever form thereof appears most likely to ensure it to us, with the least expence and greatest benefit, is preferable to all others.
  15. Standard memberno1marauder
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    19 Aug '06 02:141 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    There may be similarities in "moral law" around the world, but could this not be attributalbe to an innate conscience in regards to a Christian perspective?

    Another question would be, were there not differences between the nation the Founding Fathers created and the nations of the world during that time? It seems many of their ideas regarding government a ...[text shortened]... blic grounds, and the ten commandments should be allowed to remain visible in our court rooms.
    1) It is far more likely that the "innate conscience" you are referring has nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity since it predates Christianity;

    2) There were plenty of Christian countries before the United States. If Christianity was the primary reason why the Framers adopted their system, what happened to Germany? And Spain? And etc etc etc etc.

    3) Jefferson who wrote the Declaration of Independence and was a major influence on the US Constitution via Madison and others is the first one who used the term "wall of seperation between Church and State". I think he had it right and you have it wrong.
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