Legislating morality

Originally posted by no1marauder
A circular, "Goddunnit" argument.

Another circular, "Mandunnit" arguement.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
Putting the ten commandments in courtrooms [b]is gov't sponsorship of a religion.

If you think displaying the ten commandments on public property is wrong becuase it refers to scripture, tell me, should the Liberty Bell be taken off public property as well? After all, it has a scriptural reference written on it which is Leviticus 25:10 which says, "And you shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout the land unto all the inhabitants thererof; it shall be a jubile unto you, and you shall return every man unto his family."

So tell me, does the liberty bell endorse a particular religion? If so, melt it down why don't you.

Originally posted by whodey
If you think displaying the ten commandments on public property is wrong becuase it refers to scripture, tell me, should the Liberty Bell be taken off public property as well? After all, it has a scriptural reference written on it which is Leviticus 25:10 which says, "And you shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout the land unto all t ...[text shortened]... me, does the liberty bell endorse a particular religion? If so, melt it down why don't you.

We all know the liberty bell is a clunker, don't we?

Originally posted by no1marauder
Your ignorance is matched by your stubbornness. Jefferson certainly considered himself a Christian. And the Founding Father who wrote the Declaration of Independence WAS Jefferson! So what effect did Christianity have on the person who wrote the Declaration of Independence?

So you think that Jefferson wrote the Declaration in a vacuum do you? In fact, Jefferson was influenced by many different sources in writing the Declaration. John Locke was one of these people. His concepets found their way almost verbatim into the Declaration. Some of these concepts include the following.

"Government is a trust, forefeited by a ruler who fails to secure the public good. The ruler's authority is conditional rather than absolute."

"Citizens have the right to expect political power to be used to preserve his property."

"The people are ultimately sovereign, and always have the right to withdraw their support and overthrow the government if it fails to fulfill its trust."

I suppose that you also view men of faith, such as our Founding Fathers, had formed this country in much the same vacuum that Jefferson wrote the Declaration.

Originally posted by whodey
Biblically the conscience is talked about in John 8:9. It is where they are about to stone to death a woman caught in adultry and they asked Jesus what they should do? He then asked them, Whoever is without sin, cast the first stone." Then one by one they walked away as they were convicted by their conscience. Christ did not magically cause them to have a ...[text shortened]... e point. Nevertheless it is still there and still talks to us about what we should have done.

here read this and learn something:

http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/reason1.htm

Originally posted by whodey
So you think that Jefferson wrote the Declaration in a vacuum do you? In fact, Jefferson was influenced by many different sources in writing the Declaration. John Locke was one of these people. His concepets found their way almost verbatim into the Declaration. Some of these concepts include the following.

"Government is a trust, forefeited by a ruler ...[text shortened]... rs, had formed this country in much the same vacuum that Jefferson wrote the Declaration.

I've read Locke.

How do ANY of those quotes support your "argument"?

Originally posted by whodey
Another circular, "Mandunnit" arguement.

We know Man did do it. That's a fact, not an argument.

Originally posted by no1marauder
I've read Locke.

How do ANY of those quotes support your "argument"?

These quotes support my arguement that Jefferson did not write the Declaration by himself.

A little history of John Locke shows that he was a Christian philosopher of hte 1600's (1632-1704) and is recognized as the single greatest influence over the thinking of the writers and signers of the Declaration of Independence.

Originally posted by whodey
These quotes support my arguement that Jefferson did not write the Declaration by himself.

Your claim used to be that the formation of this country was somehow based on uniquely "Christian" morality. I have no idea what you're ranting about now; Locke had been dead for quite a while so he didn't help Jefferson write the Declaration unless he visited him along with the ghosts of Christmas Present.

Originally posted by whodey
Let me ask you this, if you go to a country in the Middle East, what would you expect to find in their court room? Perhaps something related to the religion of Islam? If you go to India, what would you expect to find there? Perhaps something related to Hinduism. It is only in the good ole US of A that our religious culture must be suppressed and stripped ...[text shortened]... o? How then is having the ten commandments visible in the court room a sponsorship of religion?

I'll dismiss your Middle Eastern comparison, because the governments of many countries there openly endorse religion. The US, however, purports to grant free exercise of religion to people of all faiths. Gov't sponsorship or endorsement of one faith above the others is inconsistent with free exercise.

Your claim that 'only in the good ole US of A [our] religious culture must be surpressed' is outlandish. There are plenty of churches, bumper stickers on cars, christian book stores, etc. Even our beloved president is openly christian. As an individual, you're allowed to be as religious as you desire in this country. Even gov't officials are free to do so, outside of official business.

Not all the ten commandments would be laughed out of court. As I pointed out previously, some of them are enforceable under US law.

The 10C's are a clearly religious document, and putting them up implies endorsement by the judge. (Why would anyone put them up if he/she didn't agree with them??) Official endorsement amounts to sponsorship when it carries the weight of gov't power behind it. Not all sponsorship need be monetary.

Originally posted by whodey
So tell me, does the liberty bell endorse a particular religion? If so, melt it down why don't you.

I value principles over historical artifacts. It wouldn't bother me one iota if the bell was melted down.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Your claim used to be that the formation of this country was somehow based on uniquely "Christian" morality. I have no idea what you're ranting about now; Locke had been dead for quite a while so he didn't help Jefferson write the Declaration unless he visited him along with the ghosts of Christmas Present.

No kidding. Jefferson was influenced by his writings, however. That is unless you can prove Jefferson could not read.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
[b]I'll dismiss your Middle Eastern comparison, because the governments of many countries there openly endorse religion. The US, however, purports to grant free exercise of religion to people of all faiths. Gov't sponsorship or endorsement of one faith above the others is inconsistent with free exercise.

You miss my entire point which is if a country has a religious heritage they should be proud of it and not attempt to suppress it in the name of seperation of church and state.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem

Not all the ten commandments would be laughed out of court. As I pointed out previously, some of them are enforceable under US law.

You know what I mean. I mean if they pointed soley to those ten commandments instead of what is written already in our laws they would be laughed at.