Originally posted by BigDoggProblem Putting the ten commandments in courtrooms [b]is gov't sponsorship of a religion. These days, you may also assume that judges will not just hang up a simple piece of paper, but will also invest taxpayer $$ in building a fancy sculpture with the commandments engraved in it. I'm sure people of other faiths love the idea of paying for it.
The 10C' f the US code, laws that may or may not be compatible with his/her own personal beliefs.[/b]
Let me ask you this, if you go to a country in the Middle East, what would you expect to find in their court room? Perhaps something related to the religion of Islam? If you go to India, what would you expect to find there? Perhaps something related to Hinduism. It is only in the good ole US of A that our religious culture must be suppressed and stripped in the name of seperation of church and state.
You rightly state that the ten commandments are not one in the same as US law. In fact, if a lawyer or a judge were to mention the ten commandments as a judgement or defence, they would be laughed out of the court room, no? How then is having the ten commandments visible in the court room a sponsorship of religion?
Originally posted by no1marauder [b]1) It is far more likely that the "innate conscience" you are referring has nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity since it predates Christianity;
The human "innate conscience" did not magically appear when Christ arrived on the scene. Christianity does not believe this to be the case, why do you?
Originally posted by whodey Let me ask you this, if you go to a country in the Middle East, what would you expect to find in their court room? Perhaps something related to the religion of Islam? If you go to India, what would you expect to find there? Perhaps something related to Hinduism. It is only in the good ole US of A that our religious culture must be suppressed and stripped ...[text shortened]... o? How then is having the ten commandments visible in the court room a sponsorship of religion?
India is a secular democracy and wouldn't allow anything akin to a "Hindu 10 Commandments" in a courtroom. No secular country would or does.
Originally posted by whodey The human "innate conscience" did not magically appear when Christ arrived on the scene. Christianity does not believe this to be the case, why do you?
I obviously don't; can't you read? Most Christians posting in this forum believe that Man is inherently evil, so where does this "innate conscience" come in?
2) There were plenty of Christian countries before the United States. If Christianity was the primary reason why the Framers adopted their system, what happened to Germany? And Spain? And etc etc etc etc.
Yes. There were plenty of other countries who were supposidly "Christian". The problem with these countries governments was, as the Founding Fathers pointed out, that they were ususally in collusion with a particular state sponsored church. This was problematic in that the dirty business of politics was then defended or carried out in the name of God. Therefore, the Founding Fathers made sure that government in no way sponsored any particular church or religion. Freedom of choice in regards to religion was preferrable to the Founding Fathers than providing only one state sponsered church. Free choice, in my opinion, is concurrent with how the Christian God would want things. After all, Biblically the Christian God gave us freedom of choice, who is man to take it from us?
Originally posted by no1marauder India is a secular democracy and wouldn't allow anything akin to a "Hindu 10 Commandments" in a courtroom. No secular country would or does.
I have no way of knowing if what you say is true. I am not even familiar enough with Hinduism to know if they have something comparible to the ten commandments. If they do, however, and it helped shape the minds of their founding fathers, then more is the pity that they shun their religious culture.
Originally posted by no1marauder I obviously don't; can't you read? Most Christians posting in this forum believe that Man is inherently evil, so where does this "innate conscience" come in?
Biblically the conscience is talked about in John 8:9. It is where they are about to stone to death a woman caught in adultry and they asked Jesus what they should do? He then asked them, Whoever is without sin, cast the first stone." Then one by one they walked away as they were convicted by their conscience. Christ did not magically cause them to have a conscience once born into the world. It was God's way of giving to man a set of directions via ones heart.
You are correct in that Christians believe man is a fallen being. Inevitably man will go against this inner voice at some point. Nevertheless it is still there and still talks to us about what we should have done.
Originally posted by no1marauder 3) Jefferson who wrote the Declaration of Independence and was a major influence on the US Constitution via Madison and others is the first one who used the term "wall of seperation between Church and State". I think he had it right and you have it wrong.[/b]
As I have said previously, 53 of the 56 Founding Fathers who signed the Declaration of Independence appear to have been Christians. We all know that Jefferson was not one of them although he talked favoribly about the teachings of Christ. He is welcome to his opinions as are you. This does not change, however, the effects of Christianity had on our Founding Fathers when they wrote and signed the Declaration of Independence.
Originally posted by whodey As I have said previously, 53 of the 56 Founding Fathers who signed the Declaration of Independence appear to have been Christians. We all know that Jefferson was not one of them although he talked favoribly about the teachings of Christ. He is welcome to his opinions as are you. This does not change, however, the effects of Christianity had on our Founding Fathers when they wrote and signed the Declaration of Independence.
Your ignorance is matched by your stubbornness. Jefferson certainly considered himself a Christian. And the Founding Father who wrote the Declaration of Independence WAS Jefferson! So what effect did Christianity have on the person who wrote the Declaration of Independence?
Originally posted by whodey Biblically the conscience is talked about in John 8:9. It is where they are about to stone to death a woman caught in adultry and they asked Jesus what they should do? He then asked them, Whoever is without sin, cast the first stone." Then one by one they walked away as they were convicted by their conscience. Christ did not magically cause them to have a ...[text shortened]... e point. Nevertheless it is still there and still talks to us about what we should have done.
Your positions are irrational and contradictory. In truth, Christians believe in Divine Command theory of Moral Law and reject the idea that law can have as its foundation anything based on an "innate conscience".
Originally posted by whodey I have no way of knowing if what you say is true. I am not even familiar enough with Hinduism to know if they have something comparible to the ten commandments. If they do, however, and it helped shape the minds of their founding fathers, then more is the pity that they shun their religious culture.
If you are ignorant about India, why did you use it as an example above? Do you ever make any effort to reconcile your statements with actual reality?
Originally posted by no1marauder Your ignorance is matched by your stubbornness. Jefferson certainly considered himself a Christian. And the Founding Father who wrote the Declaration of Independence WAS Jefferson! So what effect did Christianity have on the person who wrote the Declaration of Independence?
I have read that Jefferson was actually a Deist and not a Christian. If this is incorrect, as you have stated, and he actually was a Christian, then the author of the Declaration of Independence was in fact a Christian. Therefore, how much more evidence do I need for my position that Christianity had a major influence on our Founding Fathers?
Originally posted by whodey I have read that Jefferson was actually a Deist and not a Christian. If this is incorrect, as you have stated, and he actually was a Christian, then the author of the Declaration of Independence was in fact a Christian. Therefore, how much more evidence do I need for my position that Christianity had a major influence on our Founding Fathers?
The fact that Jefferson was a Christian isn't proof that Christianity was a "major influence" on the Declaration. That's absurd. You would have to show some actual nexus between uniquely Christian beliefs AND the innovations that the Framers adopted. You haven't even tried and when you do, you'll find the cupboard is pretty bare.
EDIT: Here's a good article about Jefferson's religious beliefs: http://www.adherents.com/people/pj/Thomas_Jefferson.html
Originally posted by no1marauder Your positions are irrational and contradictory. In truth, Christians believe in Divine Command theory of Moral Law and reject the idea that law can have as its foundation anything based on an "innate conscience".
Who said God's moral law is based on our innate conscience, rather, our conscience is a reflection of God's moral laws, not a substitute.
Originally posted by whodey Who said God's moral law is based on our innate conscience, rather, our conscience is a reflection of God's moral laws, not a substitute.
Legislating morality
19 Aug '06 02:201 edit
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