Life made in labs, would it have a soul?

Originally posted by sonhouse
It sounds like you are trying to make the argument that since he died in his sleep there was no cause of death but instead his soul left the body.

The counter to that is nobody EVER has proved anything like a soul exists.

This is, in my opinion, nothing but a fundamentally deep seeded need for humans to have something that puts them above all the OTHE ...[text shortened]... body to cause his death.

It is just your opinion there was nothing wrong with his chemicals.

"You look at a dead body and I for one am sorry for your loss..."

Thank you for that, he was one of the kindest people I ever knew.

Originally posted by josephw

Didn't say it was meaningless speculation as to what the soul might be. We know what the soul is because the Bible tells us so.

Well, the thing ~ the unique personhood or spirit, we might say ~ that many theists refer to as the "soul", is also perceived and understood to varying degrees and in various ways by people who do not subscribe to the Bible. So that is why 'what is the "soul"?' is the fundamental question underpinning the OP's question.

I said it was meaningless to speculate whether a laboratory generated human body would have a soul.

Well that's the essence of the thought exercise in the OP. To that end, what this "soul" is or isn't, is the key to this exercise.

You're obfuscating again whether you know it or not.

I think my contributions have been both clear and on target. You often seem to use the word "obfuscating" to label contributions you disagree with. 🙂

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm sure it did, but with him his
body stopped even though all the sugars, acids, proteins, and so on were
there. He was there then he wasn't.

Once again, your ignorance of basic biology is showing. I fully agree that most of the atoms were still there, but the 'sugars, acids, proteins' etc were not. Cell death occurs precisely because some of those chemicals have changed and it gets out of balance. In the case of humans the usual cause is a lack of oxygen to make energy (ATP). The chemicals are most definitely different in a dead cell as compared to a live one.

Originally posted by KellyJay
No, I don't know why he died outside of grief.
My point is that all the parts he had were with him when he laid down and
then he died in his sleep. His bodies makeup had all the chemicals while
he slept, now did something happen to him? I'm sure it did, but with him his
body stopped even though all the sugars, acids, proteins, and so on were
there. He ...[text shortened]... ns and that does not make us less than
being who we are. We are more than just flesh and blood.

"We are more than just flesh and blood."

We are. We understand ourselves at the level of physics (to a small extent), of chemistry, of biology/physiology, of psychology, of sociology, and some say we can look at the spiritual level, which others say is the philosophical level.

Thinking that the deeper levels (physics and chemistry) are better or more real, is a mistake called reductionism. Different levels are good for different purposes. For example, quite a view conditions that have been treated under psychology are now treated under chemistry (pharmacology).

This thread asks which levels we should apply to biological life made in labs. I think it will boil down to which levels are useful. The same applies to electromechanical devices (robots).

Originally posted by twhitehead
The really big error Kelly is making in this thread is to ignore multicellularity. A human being is a multicellular life form and does not have a well defined property of being 'alive' or 'dead'. For most animals, one can often call a multicelluar organism 'alive' or 'dead' based on the state of the majority of the cells, but even with animals it is far f ...[text shortened]... n 100% are dead? Or when so many are dead that one cannot reasonably hope to revived the animal?

"A human being is a multicellular life form and does not have a well defined property of being 'alive' or 'dead'."

A well defined property of being alive or dead? That's got to be the most delusional thing I've ever heard!

Zombie apocalypse now! 😲

Originally posted by FMF
[b]Didn't say it was meaningless speculation as to what the soul might be. We know what the soul is because the Bible tells us so.

Well, the thing ~ the unique personhood or spirit, we might say ~ that many theists refer to as the "soul", is also perceived and understood to varying degrees and in various ways by people who do not subscribe to the Bible. S ...[text shortened]... arget. You often seem to use the word "obfuscating" to label contributions you disagree with. 🙂[/b]

Your rejection of a final authority, such as the Word of God, leaves you in speculation. Nothing you believe about what constitutes the attributes of human existence is undergirded by truth, but rather speculation.

Hence our diametrically opposed perspectives.

Originally posted by JS357
"We are more than just flesh and blood."

We are. We understand ourselves at the level of physics (to a small extent), of chemistry, of biology/physiology, of psychology, of sociology, and some say we can look at the spiritual level, which others say is the philosophical level.

Thinking that the deeper levels (physics and chemistry) are better or more rea ...[text shortened]... ll boil down to which levels are useful. The same applies to electromechanical devices (robots).

We are because we are created in the image and likeness of God with the ability to be in communion with God in every respect, unlike every other created thing.

Who and what we are and what we shall be is defined by our creator, and not in a laboratory or on a psychologist's couch, or in a philosopher's classroom.

Originally posted by JS357
"We are more than just flesh and blood."

We are. We understand ourselves at the level of physics (to a small extent), of chemistry, of biology/physiology, of psychology, of sociology, and some say we can look at the spiritual level, which others say is the philosophical level.

Thinking that the deeper levels (physics and chemistry) are better or more rea ...[text shortened]... ll boil down to which levels are useful. The same applies to electromechanical devices (robots).

Robots, computers will never be alive! All computers are, are very fast
adding machines nothing more. They may be able to fool people to where
they don't know they are talking to one, but that does not make one
alive or even remotely close to life.

Originally posted by josephw
Your rejection of a final authority, such as the Word of God, leaves you in speculation. Nothing you believe about what constitutes the attributes of human existence is undergirded by truth, but rather speculation.

Hence our diametrically opposed perspectives.

Your personal feeling of certainty about the explanations you happen to subscribe to does not alter the fact that religious conjecture about supernatural things and divine beings is simply another form of speculation about who we are and what makes us tick ~ these various forms of speculation [and indeed, their diversity and ingenuity] are part and parcel of the human condition, and we could perhaps say it is the "soul" dimension of each person that is engaging in the personal and communal speculation.

Originally posted by josephw
A well defined property of being alive or dead? That's got to be the most delusional thing I've ever heard!

If you find it delusional, then try answering my questions. You can't can you?Instead you are so embarrassed you are forced to make zombie jokes.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Robots, computers will never be alive! All computers are, are very fast
adding machines nothing more. They may be able to fool people to where
they don't know they are talking to one, but that does not make one
alive or even remotely close to life.

But someone turned the power off and my computer died. All the chemicals were still there, but it wasn't working any more. Clearly there is more to my computer than just chemicals!

Originally posted by josephw
We are because we are created in the image and likeness of God with the ability to be in communion with God in every respect, unlike every other created thing.

Who and what we are and what we shall be is defined by our creator, and not in a laboratory or on a psychologist's couch, or in a philosopher's classroom.

That's just one more of the many aspects of the scam of religion. We made this so-called god in the image of man not the other way round.

We humans gave this so-called god human attributes so primitive humans could have something to hang onto.

With statements like 'I am a jealous god', that proves the man made nature of these religions.

How stupid do you have to be to actually believe that? Like a god, capable of making entire universes would be somehow JEALOUS of humans? Demanding their attention, worship me or I will kill you?

Why don't religious people see through that obvious scam?

Originally posted by sonhouse
That's just one more of the many aspects of the scam of religion. We made this so-called god in the image of man not the other way round.

We humans gave this so-called god human attributes so primitive humans could have something to hang onto.

With statements like 'I am a jealous god', that proves the man made nature of these religions.

How stupid ...[text shortened]... on, worship me or I will kill you?

Why don't religious people see through that obvious scam?

Because some of us are not as ignorant as you. 😏

Originally posted by FMF
Your personal feeling of certainty about the explanations you happen to subscribe to does not alter the fact that religious conjecture about supernatural things and divine beings is simply another form of speculation about who we are and what makes us tick ~ these various forms of speculation [and indeed, their diversity and ingenuity] are part and parcel of the ...[text shortened]... s the "soul" dimension of each person that is engaging in the personal and communal speculation.

"Your personal feeling of certainty about the explanations you happen to subscribe to..."

The explanations I subscribe to have nothing to do with how I feel, and everything to do with the fact that those explanations come directly from the mouth of God. The void exists in your mind, not mine, concerning the answer to the question of what a soul is, as well as everything else in existence. The certainty I possess isn't based on feelings, but on the truth of God's Word.

On the other hand, you can only speculate about things spiritual based on your own religious adherence to humanistic conjecture because you have only your own word to go by, which has no more authority than any other human being.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Because some of us are not as ignorant as you. 😏

You have zero credibility since you are bible besotted, drunk with religion, obsessed to the point of insanity.

Like I said, saying a god would be jealous of humans is one of the most ludicrous concepts in the bible.

If I was able to make entire universes with a snap of my figurative fingers, do you think for one second I would somehow be jealous of humans?

Why do you think a god would be like that? Such a deity would undoubtedly be pronounced with an obsessive compulsive narcissistic syndrome and would not be someone I would EVER want to associate with.

Why would you believe such obvious nonsense? Because of your programming, they programmed you well.