Originally posted by KellyJayThis seems to be what invariably happens.
If you focused on Christ' teaching I do believe we would see that in the fruit in your conversations. The belittling and name calling shouldn't be the norm.
So does your doctrine justify your mean spirited attacks? Justifying bad behavior by saying others do it more or your claiming your not as bad only shows your aware of the bad things your doing. It's ...[text shortened]... do you consider your actions before God or just move on thinking your right an they deserve it?
People can't reasonably back up their beliefs with scripture in discussions with rajk999, so they attack him personally.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneTo be honest ToO, I dont mind the personal attacks.
This seems to be what invariably happens.
People can't reasonably back up their beliefs with scripture in discussions with rajk999, so they attack him personally.
Im sure there there are a few people out there who read what we both write and think twice about getting involved with churches that dont preach Christ commandments. Its all that matters.
Originally posted by Rajk999I didn't think that you do.
To be honest ToO, I dont mind the personal attacks.
Im sure there there are a few people out there who read what we both write and think twice about getting involved with churches that dont preach Christ commandments. Its all that matters.
The point that I was trying to make is that they need to understand the fallacy of attacking you personally in lieu of reasonably backing up their beliefs with scripture. It proves nothing.
Originally posted by Rajk999I believe I will shake the dust off my shoes with you and grant you your wishes.
I realise that your intellect and knowledge does not allow you to participate in discussions such as these; You are out of your depth here so I would appreciate it if you take a back seat and read from the sidelines .. thanks.
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Originally posted by josephwYes, but again thats like about 5% of the teachings of the Apostles, and you will find absolutely nowhere that Christ said anything similar. So your doctrine is incomplete at best
Ephesians 2:8,9
[b]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
By grace through faith plus nothing = eternal life.[/b]
In Ephesians Paul addresses the brethren there as Christian saints telling them that they are saved by grace, {Eph 2], and then later in Eph 5 he tells the very same saints that much more is needed to enter the Kingdom of God... so right there we can see that your 'plus nothing' comment is wrong. Here is what Paul says that needs to be done IN ADDITION TO BEING SAVED BY GRACE...
Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. (Ephesians 5:1-5 KJV)
The mistake made by your church doctrine is that they equate:
'saved by grace' with 'eternal life'.
These two things have different meanings as is obvious if you were to read the whole of Ephesians, in fact any of the writings of Paul. He tells all the churches that they are saved by grace through faith. But then also tells then that they will not enter the Kingdom of God or get eternal life unless they also live righteously and do good works.
So in the case of the Ephesian brethren - Paul addressed all of them as Christian saints, and all were saved by grace but not all will have inheritance in the kingdom of God. Only those who live righteously, do good works, avoid sin etc .. in other words it is only those who follow the commandments of Christ will enter the Kingdom of God.
There is therefore NO DIFFERENCE between the teachings of Christ [which you seem to think does not apply] and the teachings of the Apostles.
Originally posted by Rajk999Eternal life is a gift. A gift that cannot be earned or maintained by works.
Yes, but again thats like about 5% of the teachings of the Apostles, and you will find absolutely nowhere that Christ said anything similar. So your doctrine is incomplete at best
In Ephesians Paul addresses the brethren there as Christian saints telling them that they are saved by grace, {Eph 2], and then later in Eph 5 he tells the very same saints that ...[text shortened]... teachings of Christ [which you seem to think does not apply] and the teachings of the Apostles.
Your contrasting of Ephesians 2 with Ephesians 5 is wrong. Nowhere in Ephesians 5 does it say "more is needed" to be saved. Your interpretation is false, and creates a contradiction of the scriptures.
"The mistake made by your church doctrine is that they equate:
'saved by grace' with 'eternal life'."
You are wrong. Just read Ephesians 2:8,9.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Saved from what? Death! Saved to what? Eternal life. Saved how? By grace through faith. Not by works. God could not have made it easier to understand.
You make three blundering errors. You misinterpret, misunderstand and misapply.
For example: you make this completely erroneous statement. "But then also tells then that they will not enter the Kingdom of God or get eternal life unless they also live righteously and do good works."
Paul did not say that. You're reading into the text a meaning that's not there. You need to read the text more carefully. The passage in chapter 5 is not a warning not to sin or else. Read it again.
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Originally posted by josephwClearly you are happy with your 5% doctrine, and rather ignore the other 95% of the teachings of Paul and the Apostles. I can bet any money though, that when you lie on your bed at night you will ponder the other 95% of the writings of Paul which your church doctrine did not tell you about.
Eternal life is a gift. A gift that cannot be earned or maintained by works.
Your contrasting of Ephesians 2 with Ephesians 5 is wrong. Nowhere in Ephesians 5 does it say "more is needed" to be saved. Your interpretation is false, and creates a contradiction of the scriptures.
[b]"The mistake made by your church doctrine is that they equate:
'saved ...[text shortened]... ext more carefully. The passage in chapter 5 is not a warning not to sin or else. Read it again.
Virtually all of the Apostles teachings take a similar course:
- the purpose of the death and resurrection of Christ
- how this saved mankind from the sin of Adam
- How Christian saints can enter the Kingdom of God
- the end result of those who do not follow righteousness and good works.
So people can rant and rave all they like about 'saved by grace' and 'its a gift' and 'Im saved and have to do nothing' etc etc .. in the end if they do not live righteously, they will get their just rewards... and according to all the Apostles that is eternal death in the lake of fire.
Originally posted by Rajk999Clearly you are a biased and judgmental legalist.
Clearly you are happy with your 5% doctrine, and rather ignore the other 95% of the teachings of Paul and the Apostles. I can bet any money though, that when you lie on your bed at night you will ponder the other 95% of the writings of Paul which your church doctrine did not tell you about.
Virtually all of the Apostles teachings take a similar course ...[text shortened]... eir just rewards... and according to all the Apostles that is eternal death in the lake of fire.
5%-95%. What utter rubbish. Unlike you my doctrine is contained throughout scripture, and not on a narrowly defined set of dogma you espouse.
2 Timothy 3:16,17
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
The Word of God is the whole law. I bet you never thought of that.
Psalm 19:7-9
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul:
the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart:
the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever:
the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
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Originally posted by josephwThe Bible is consistent on this basic fact: God hates sin and loves righteousness. , and there is no part of the Bible that reverses that. Jesus did not die so that Christians can continue to sin, which is what some Christians preach ... Your type of Christianity is contrary to God and to the teachings of Christ and the Apostles, all of whom preached the avoidance of sin and the striving toward righteousness and good works.
Clearly you are a biased and judgmental legalist.
5%-95%. What utter rubbish. Unlike you my doctrine is contained throughout scripture, and not on a narrowly defined set of dogma you espouse.
2 Timothy 3:16,17
[b]All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness ...[text shortened]... is clean, enduring for ever:
the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.[/b]
You are part and parcel of the Darkness which speaks against the Light of Christ
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
(1 John 5:3 KJV)
Originally posted by Rajk999"Jesus did not die so that Christians can continue to sin, which is what some Christians preach ..."
The Bible is consistent on this basic fact: [b]God hates sin and loves righteousness. , and there is no part of the Bible that reverses that. Jesus did not die so that Christians can continue to sin, which is what some Christians preach ... Your type of Christianity is contrary to God and to the teachings of Christ and the Apostles, all of whom preach ...[text shortened]... that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
(1 John 5:3 KJV)[/i][/b][/b]
That statement appears to be the premise upon which all your posts are based.
Your premise is a lie, therefore all you say is a lie too. No Christian posting in this forum has ever advocated that "Christians can continue to sin". You lie.
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Originally posted by Rajk999Alright.
Yes, but again thats like about 5% of the teachings of the Apostles, and you will find absolutely nowhere that Christ said anything similar. So your doctrine is incomplete at best
In Ephesians Paul addresses the brethren there as Christian saints telling them that they are saved by grace, {Eph 2], and then later in Eph 5 he tells the very same saints that ...[text shortened]... teachings of Christ [which you seem to think does not apply] and the teachings of the Apostles.
Try to walk this back.
First you said: "Yes, but again thats like about 5% of the teachings of the Apostles, and you will find absolutely nowhere that Christ said anything similar."
And then you said: "There is therefore NO DIFFERENCE between the teachings of Christ and the teachings of the Apostles."
So please tell us, WHICH IS IT?
By the way, Christ taught LOVE over ALL. I have yet to see ANYthing like that in your posts.
So, again, you're just a hypocrite.
Originally posted by josephwYou lack basic reasoning ability like so many Christians with your doctrine.
[b]"Jesus did not die so that Christians can continue to sin, which is what some Christians preach ..."
That statement appears to be the premise upon which all your posts are based.
Your premise is a lie, therefore all you say is a lie too. No Christian posting in this forum has ever advocated that "Christians can continue to sin". You lie.[/b]
You say the following:
- profess with your mouth that you believe in Christ and you are saved [saved by grace]
- this means that you cannot lose your salvation and your entry into the kingdom of God is secure
- Good works and righteous living is not necessary
- nothing further is necessary
- however Christians can and do sin but sin is not held against them and they would not have to account for sin.
It is only a complete fool cannot see that that doctrine advocates / encourages sin rather than discouraging it. And an even bigger fool is the one that claims all Christians will do good works because they have Gods Spirit .. what utter BS.
Originally posted by Rajk999Ok. So let's start at square one.
You lack basic reasoning ability like so many Christians with your doctrine.
You say the following:
- profess with your mouth that you believe in Christ and you are saved [saved by grace]
- this means that you cannot lose your salvation and your entry into the kingdom of God is secure
- Good works and righteous living is not necessary
- nothing furth ...[text shortened]... ne that claims all Christians will do good works because they have Gods Spirit .. what utter BS.
Is it, or is it not true that eternal life is a gift?