"Loving Jesus" and "eternal torture"

Originally posted by sonship
Did you sit down and READ the New Testament for yourself?

Yes, several times. And in Indonesian too.

Originally posted by sonhouse
So it appears you religious types are unable to answer my charges about your alleged god. You can't get past your programming to even consider what I said.

What "charges" do you want me to answer exactly?

Originally posted by divegeester
As far as I can tell myself and Suzianne are the only Christians in this forum who do not accept the eternal burning in hell doctrine.

I think I may find a video clip of someone being burned alive and post it here so that those who believe their version of the loving, merciful god has created a place especially for burning people for eternity, can have a point of reference for their belief.

I also do not subscribe to an eternal torture burning. Genesis 2:17 tells us the original punishment for disobedience (sin) is death.
Genesis 3:19 adds, "For dust you are and to dust you will return."
Eternal burning is a fabrication (lie) devised by Satan to control people through fear.
If you destroy something, anything, by burning, it cannot be restored, it is gone forever.

Originally posted by FMF
For those Christians who subscribe to the ideology that it is right and just for non-believers and "sinners" to be tortured in burning agony for all eternity ~ as revenge and punishment ~ by God, do you think you will still continue to love God and Jesus even if you are cast into the burning flames and tortured for ever and ever for your "sins"?

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things

One of the worst things of eternity is that you'll be able to remember you had ample opportunity to repent and trust in Christ. That is if you are in hell!

Originally posted by RBHILL
One of the worst things of eternity is that you'll be able to remember you had ample opportunity to repent and trust in Christ. That is if you are in hell!

Yes, I think it the darkest notion of social proscription and control that the human imagination has ever dredged up. I think it is a tragedy that so many people have invested their spiritual energy in subscribing to such far-fetched and morally unsound beliefs.

Originally posted by FMF
Yes, I think it the darkest notion of social proscription and control that the human imagination has ever dredged up. I think it is a tragedy that so many people have invested their spiritual energy in subscribing to such far-fetched and morally unsound beliefs.

Have you ever seen a motion picture called "The Good Son"?

It would be curious to see what you thought of it.

It is about a loving mother who has a child, her son, who is hopelessly evil with his siblings and manipulative towards her. It is a sad story. But it is a meaningful one which I think some unhappy parents can identify with.

How much leeway, how much love, how much permission, how many second chances can a loving parent give a psychopathically evil child?

There was a corresponding movie which involved a daughter called "The Bad Seed". But I think "The Good Son" ended more seriously, more heart breakingly, and more effectively.

To the bitter end, with this kid, love ONLY resulted in him becoming more manipulative and murderous of his mother and brother. Its a tragic story. The one I refer to was The Good Son made in 1993.

Originally posted by sonship
How much leeway, how much love, how much permission, how many second chances can a loving parent give a psychopathically evil child?

Are you suggesting that a person with different religious beliefs from the ones you just so happen to subscribe to is ~ according to your moral compass ~ in some way comparable to "a psychopathically evil child"?

How many believe in eternal torture? Raise your hands. You are like the weeds in the field of wheat.

Originally posted by FMF
Are you suggesting that a person with different religious beliefs from the ones you just so happen to subscribe to is ~ according to your moral compass ~ in some way comparable to "a psychopathically evil child"?

Are you suggesting that a person with different religious beliefs from the ones you just so happen to subscribe to is ~ according to your moral compass ~ in some way comparable to "a psychopathically evil child"?

That's a loaded question with at least two phrases which enshrine your own assumptions.

My "moral compass".

And "different religious beliefs".

You phrase your questions so that the presupposition you wish to established is agreed upon up front.

The only "moral compass" so to speak which is really important is God Himself.

And God is not a "religious" God or a God of "religious belief".

If there is God , that is not the God of religion. That is the God of reality.

So your favorite way of putting this question like "If someone doesn't share your religious belief he will be tortured?" is just your accusation dressed as a question.

It implies a personal vindictiveness I have created.
I don't buy into your presupposition.

Another trick you like is to ask your questions preceeded by the phrase "Let me see if I get this right ..".

The phrasing is a phony disguise of intellectual curiosity.
But its a cloak to make your viewpoint known.
That is that I am, and God is, a blood thirsty sadist.

Neither is true.

And if a person comes to faith in Jesus Christ because that person heard something about eternal punishment and sought to be saved from it, that is perfectly valid. He need not be ashamed.

As for the movie, The Good Son?
It is about an unredeemable person who only uses the love and longsuffering of his parent to gain the advantage over others to perform even more evil.

The analogy between that story and the Bible is not suggested to be a perfect match. However, for those whose names are not recorded in the Lamb's book of life at the final judgment, no remedy is left. The are cursed as vile, worthless.

If a person comes to believe in the Son of God because she or he does not want to become vile to God or worthless to God or a curse to God, but rather be SAVED, that is perfectly valid. They need not be ashamed regardless of what you may say.

If a person loves the Lord Jesus Christ because Jesus saved them and assures them of escape from eternal punishment, that is nothing to be ashamed of.

IF a person loves the Lord Jesus because they realize how MUCH they have been forgiven in His salvation, that too is perfectly valid.

If a person would rather be with God than be damned, that is perfectly valid and scriptural.

IF a person loves Jesus just by becomming familiar with Jesus, yet does have trouble with some things taught in the Bible, that too is valid.

If a person does not believe that God will send people to eternal punishment but rather to some non-existence, but he loves Jesus, that is valid also.

If a person has some real serious problems with the thought of God sending the lost to eternal punishment, I don't blame him. I don't blame anyone for being horrified by the thought of eternal punishment.

I would not encourage such a one to see that and no other teaching in the whole Bible.

If a person thinks that the end all is just not going to hell, that is not valid at all. God has an eternal purpose beyond this. And neglect of it is liable to keep the Christian in spiritual immaturity.

Originally posted by sonship
If a person loves the Lord Jesus Christ because Jesus saved them and assures them of escape from eternal punishment, that is nothing to be ashamed of.

IF a person loves the Lord Jesus because they realize how MUCH they have been forgiven in His salvation, that too is perfectly valid.

If a person would rather be with God than be damned, that is perfect ...[text shortened]... purpose beyond this. And neglect of it is liable to keep the Christian in spiritual immaturity.

I say wholeheartedly Amen!

Originally posted by Agerg
I think he is a Christian in much the same way as you are - doesn't really buy into to the garbage of religion yet still holds to the notion of a personal god associated in some way with the Bible. Like most moderates I find he talks good sense around here (barring obvious exceptions like the deity he believes in of course!).

thats the problem with 'thumbs down' - i dont know if its for the the first comment or the second one in brackets ???


Explain your thumbs down you thumb downers!

Originally posted by CalJust
Accepted - and thanks FMF.

I don't post a lot in this forum anymore because it is (mostly) the same stuff re-hashed over and over again. (Evolution, hell, OSAS, etc)

I miss Hakima! And also it would be nice if there were other faiths prepared to debate - or even find common ground.

I just read a lot these days. I find it hard to impart any wisdom to any around here, however I have learnt some wisdoms myself here

Originally posted by sonship
The only "moral compass" so to speak which is really important is God Himself.

And God is not a "religious" God or a God of "religious belief".

Of course your belief in your God figure involves religious beliefs. And the moral compass I am interested in is yours and how it is affected by your superstitions. So, in recent weeks, you have revealed that you define torture for eternity for a lack of belief as "perfect justice". You have also revealed that the notion that those who do not share your beliefs will be tortured for eternity makes your Christian life easier for you. This is information about your personal moral compass.

Originally posted by sonship
The phrasing is a phony disguise of intellectual curiosity.
But its a cloak to make your viewpoint known.
That is that I am, and God is, a blood thirsty sadist.

Neither is true.

Yes, sonship. I make my viewpoint known all the time. This is a debate and discussion forum. You make your viewpoints known and I make my viewpoints known. You worship a torturer God in my view. You don't think you do. Nothing is "cloaked". You are what you post, as I am too.