"Loving Jesus" and "eternal torture"

Originally posted by sonship
So your favorite way of putting this question like "If someone doesn't share your religious belief he will be tortured?" is just your accusation dressed as a question. It implies a personal vindictiveness I have created.

You believe that those who do not believe the claims you make about Jesus are "evil", "vile" and "worthless" and you believe "perfect justice" for them is eternal torture and that this is an example of the "glory" of your God figure. I don't believe that any of this is true, of course. Your theology is one of supernatural wrath and revenge. Your ideology is steeped in vindictiveness.

Originally posted by FMF

One of the things I believe among many things in the Bible is that at the end of the age bordering on the eternal age -

"And if anyone was not found in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)

I don't know how many times you want me to tell you.

And I believe that all God's judgments are righteous indeed.

The good news is that we can have nothing to do with such a fate through the torture and death of the Man who was God incarnate, and His finished work on Calvary.

It was not merely the suffering inflicted upon Him by man's persecution. But He was forsaken by God and in truth cried out -

"My God, My God, Why have you forsaken Me?"

We do not and cannot know the horror of that affair to the Son of God.
Nor can I adequately and exhaustively explain it.
I know I am called to believe in the Son of God.

When Jesus died for us on the cross the Bible says it was the lifting up of the brass serpent in the wilderness. The brass serpent is a symbol of Satan under judgment. He died not only as the Lamb of God but also in the form of Satan the ancient serpent.

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up That everyone who believes into Him may have eternal life.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone who believes into Him would not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:15,16)

I believe these words came out of the mouth of one Jesus Christ.
I do not believe He was or is fictitious.
I do not believe that the words were fictitiously invented and placed into the mouth of someone.

I do not think this means "everyone who agrees with my [ sonship's ] religion shall not perish but have eternal life." It is far bigger than me personally being vindicated as to my "religion."

I believe, all things considered, Jesus is a believable Person.

Had Jesus not taken His mission so utterly seriously, then I might doubt the veracity of His pronoucements. But after saying such things as these, He was absolute unto His understanding of His destiny to save sinners. And He was that to the uttermost, completely forsaken by His disciples. And apparently and mysteriously suffered the forsaking of the Father as He bore our sins under divine judgment.

God has given me the ability to believe these things. And for that I am eternally thankful. I don't really think that in myself, by myself, I have any more faith then the smartest skeptic here.

God has somehow granted me the ability to believe into Christ. If I had refused, I too would be lost, not having my name recorded in the book of life. I would have gone to this thing "the second death" and "the lake of fire".

From everything I read in connection with it, it is not something I would want to experience.

I do not like the idea of eternal punishment. But I expect that when God is finished conforming me completely to the image of His Son, I will see all things as through the eyes of the Son. Probably at that time I will fully realize what an enemy of God Himself actually is and why the place left for them is eternal punishment.

Robert Govette -

" 'There cannot be eternal suffering,' you say. Will there not be eternal sinning among the lost? Is God obliged to stay the endless flow of sin from the lips and acts of the lost? 'You admit then, that it would be unjust in God to inflict eternal suffering solely because of man's past acts on earth.' By no means ! I account sin infinite.

The sentiment, that eternal punishment is unjust, comes from a partial judge. It is man, leaning toward his own race beyond what is just. It is a sinner inwardly bribed to give a verdict on behalf of sinners. It is a set of felons pretending to condemn the laws against felony. It is one-sided - intense appreciation of pain ; but light appreciation of sin and its deserts. It is the sentiment of the ignorant. The best little apprehend of the holiness of God. It is the result of a heart that is "deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked :" Jer. xvii. Will you trust this sentiment of the heart? [b]"He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool :" Prov. xxviii,26. "The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise that they are but vain." It is the decision of a packed jury, whose heart is at enmity with the person judged."

So if eternal punishment is unjust then we must discard the Bible; for the Bible teaches eternal punishment. The goodness of God has a consequence to the unreconciled. His infinite goodness makes more sinful the transgression which men and demons commit against Him.

The benevolence of God in the Bible is beyond questioning.
It has to be granted by the honest reader though he have problems with God's acts in some places. Scripture asserts that both goodness and justice co-exist in God. We will eventually make a rendevous with the realization that Justice and truth demand eternal punishment of the willfully unreconciled offender.

Originally posted by sonship
The good news is that we can have nothing to do with such a fate through the torture and death of the Man who was God incarnate, and His finished work on Calvary.

Good news in what way? Are you suggesting that I should pretend to believe the same things as you [about Jesus being "God incarnate", for example] ~ or go around saying I do ~ when in fact I simply do not?

Originally posted by sonship
And I believe that all God's judgments are righteous indeed.

This is why your own moral compass is, in my view, damaged. Your notion of "righteous" and "justice" seem to qualify as "evil". This taints all your pontifications on "morality", to my way of thinking.

Originally posted by sonship
When Jesus died for us on the cross the Bible says it was the lifting up of the brass serpent in the wilderness. The brass serpent is a symbol of Satan under judgment. He died not only as the Lamb of God but also in the form of Satan the ancient serpent.

What is your advice to those of your fellow humans who simply find this kind of stuff utterly unbelievable and incoherent, and who are not persuaded by the strength of your sincerity and conviction?

Originally posted by FMF
Good news in what way? Are you suggesting that I should pretend to believe the same things as you [about Jesus being "God incarnate", for example] ~ or go around saying I do ~ when in fact I simply do not?

No. I do not think you should pretend to believe.
I do not think you should pretend that you cannot cry out "God, Help my unbelief"

I often go to God and tell Him that I simply cannot believe something, or do not have faith. He seems not to reject an honest approach.

But it is a very personal matter, the most intimate and personal of decisions one could make.

You think it does some good to argue with me, to wait for me to say something inconsistent, to catch some logical problem. This only demonstrates that I am limited in explanation of the Gospel. But I could have told you that from the beginning. I am very limited in explaining the depths of the Gospel.

Me, is not the issue. And saying "Look everyone. I can catch sonship stumbling over his words" is not doing as much as you may imagine.

There is no shame in being so frightened by the prospect of eternal punishment that you ask Jesus to save you. I think you want to associate shame with wanting to be saved from eternal suffering. But there is no shame in receiving Jesus as Savior from eternal separation from God.

Since Christ is real and grows more and more in His intimate union with the saved man, one will find many, many more reasons to love such a One. I do not fault Him because He is many faceted and multifaceted.

Originally posted by sonship
So if eternal punishment is unjust then we must discard the Bible; for the Bible teaches eternal punishment.

Well this advice works for me and I accept it. But is it your advice to your fellow Christians too?

Originally posted by sonship
Me, is not the issue. And saying "Look everyone. I can catch sonship stumbling over his words" is not doing as much as you may imagine.

Don't be paranoid, sonship. I am simply chatting with you on a message board.

Originally posted by sonship
No. I do not think you should pretend to believe.
I do not think you should pretend that you cannot cry out "God, Help my unbelief"

On one hand you say I should not pretend to believe the things you say about God. In the next sentence you tell me to pretend to believe that I can talk to God.

Originally posted by sonship
You think it does some good to argue with me, to wait for me to say something inconsistent, to catch some logical problem. This only demonstrates that I am limited in explanation of the Gospel. But I could have told you that from the beginning. I am very limited in explaining the depths of the Gospel.

I find some of your superstitions and beliefs interesting. I engage you on occasions when you make 'truth claims' about my reality based on things in your imagination. I find some aspects of "the depths" you seek to explain to be completely repulsive ~ morally, intellectually and spiritually.

Originally posted by sonship
There is no shame in being so frightened by the prospect of eternal punishment that you ask Jesus to save you. I think you want to associate shame with wanting to be saved from eternal suffering.

Just to be clear, I do not believe there is any "prospect of eternal punishment" and I am therefore not "frightened" by it. I do not believe I need to be "saved from eternal suffering". I find your imagination, as you earnestly reveal it on this message board, to be harmless and non-threatening. I feel no shame and no fear. These are emotions that you are imagining and are choosing to project onto me.

Originally posted by FMF
I find some of your superstitions and beliefs interesting. I engage you on occasions when you make 'truth claims' about my reality based on things in your imagination. I find some aspects of "the depths" you seek to explain to be completely repulsive ~ morally, intellectually and spiritually.

People do seem to have a strong reaction one way or another to the words of the Bible.

And if not for your sake, but for the sake of someone else reading along, I repeat - If one feels in danger of the wrath of God and seeks refuge in God's salvation in Jesus Christ, that is perfectly normal.

If you FMF don't need to hear that, someone else may.

I like that the Bible doesn't beg. It simply states in a matter of fact way what is God's speaking. Its amazing.

If you're too macho to heed the need for the Gospel, that's your affair.

Originally posted by sonship
If you're too macho to heed the need for the Gospel, that's your affair.

"Too macho"? What does being "macho" or not being "macho" have to do with finding your ideology outlandish and simply not believing what you believe?

Originally posted by FMF
On one hand you say I should not pretend to believe the things you say about God. In the next sentence you tell me to pretend to believe that I can talk to God.

You imagine that your words are not heard by God.

He who made the ear, does He not hear ?

If every careless word is recorded of men, I have no problem believing that a purposeful prayer or calling out to God will be heard.

Now I know you have more questions and more questions.
But that's all I have for your discussion now.