@indonesia-phil saidYes, and you correct it is my point. We can take a material and use it to our desired ends. Material like metal has to be formed altered into something not found in nature, so it is unnatural, and we use it as we will. The spiritual world interacting in the material world would be no different. Since we owe our very existence to the Spiritual world that transcends this one, seeing things done in it is no different than seeing us act upon things molding them to what we want.
What's all this about flying metal? If you're talking about airplanes (?) then that's just mechanics; pure, logical science and engineering. Nothing to compare there with a spiritual being acting upon some creature in the world, can you really not see the difference?
'As a rule, snakes don't talk, and neither do bushes.' Well done, did you work that one out by yourse ...[text shortened]... ke it one step further and work out that they never actually do, and you might be getting somewhere.
@kellyjay saidYour logic is ridiculous. As I explained in my last post, an airplane is an entirely man - made piece of engineering, which is understood in its' entirety. Humankind has known how to purify and form metal for thousands of years, there is no mystery to it. You can talk to a snake 'til the cows come home and it won't talk back.
Yes, and you correct it is my point. We can take a material and use it to our desired ends. Material like metal has to be formed altered into something not found in nature, so it is unnatural, and we use it as we will. The spiritual world interacting in the material world would be no different. Since we owe our very existence to the Spiritual world that transcends this one, ...[text shortened]... eeing things done in it is no different than seeing us act upon things molding them to what we want.
And as for owing our entire existence to the spiritual world, that is nothing but speculation, with no foundation in truth which can be proven, and if you base your belief on talking snakes, perhaps you should have another think about it.
@indonesia-phil saidI agree with you. It is understood because we did it. We know that an outside influence, "us," can take the natural material of the world and alter it to suit us. We can create voice synthesizers to sound like people. We can even take computer programs and use the molded material into the features we want. We can make a sound that is difficult to know; it isn't a natural person. So knowing that can happen means that the same thing can be established with the spiritual world acting upon the things in this life. I cannot make a snake talk, never claimed to, I cannot even make an airplane, though others can and do. I've worked in the semiconductor world for 20 years, but I cannot make a CPU; simply because I cannot does not mean it cannot be done.
Your logic is ridiculous. As I explained in my last post, an airplane is an entirely man - made piece of engineering, which is understood in its' entirety. Humankind has known how to purify and form metal for thousands of years, there is no mystery to it. You can talk to a snake 'til the cows come home and it won't talk back.
And as for owing our entire existence to t ...[text shortened]... oven, and if you base your belief on talking snakes, perhaps you should have another think about it.
The thing I think you are doing here is simply saying no, not because of anything other than the definition you have about the spirit world. You think it isn't real; therefore, nothing can be genuine about it acting on this life. In contrast, I believe that what created the universe and everything in it transcends the universe; it isn't a part of it. The first cause of all things is causeless, God, who is not part of this universe except that He created it and holds it together by the power of His Word.
@kellyjay saidYeah, clever old us, and you're free of course to believe in whatever you want, talking snakes and all. I only take issue with you and other Christians here when they try to present their beliefs as facts, which they so often do, and to write off years of dedicated scientific research into DNA, the fossil record, and other and now extinct closely related (to us) hominid species as being 'no evidence at all' for evolution.
I agree with you. It is understood because we did it. We know that an outside influence, "us," can take the natural material of the world and alter it to suit us. We can create voice synthesizers to sound like people. We can even take computer programs and use the molded material into the features we want. We can make a sound that is difficult to know; it isn't a natural per ...[text shortened]... not part of this universe except that He created it and holds it together by the power of His Word.
Good science is not about dogma, it's about a continuous process of learning, based on that which we already know. Dogma is to be avoided in all of its' manifestations, be it scientific or religious.
According to the bible story, Adam and Eve had two sons, and no Christian as far as I'm aware has ever been able to explain where the next generation came from; if the bible is literally true, as many Christians claim, then it makes no sense, any more than does a talking snake, and to say that 'god did it' holds no logical or intellectual water whatsoever.
@indonesia-phil saidAre you presenting your views as facts? The narrative on how the universe began is all-important; it's the meta-narrative. How it all began is foundational to everything else, I believe it began due to One that transcends the universe itself. Now I'm open to hearing how you believe it all started; what evidence do you have for your views? Evolution does not describe the universe's beginning; even the big bang doesn't address the question. Evolution doesn't address the beginning of life; it only speaks to the transformation of life; it does not address how the information in life got there, let alone how small changes over time can occur without disrupting life to the point of death. Now dogma is defined how by you?
Yeah, clever old us, and you're free of course to believe in whatever you want, talking snakes and all. I only take issue with you and other Christians here when they try to present their beliefs as facts, which they so often do, and to write off years of dedicated scientific research into DNA, the fossil record, and other and now extinct closely related (to us) homin ...[text shortened]... oes a talking snake, and to say that 'god did it' holds no logical or intellectual water whatsoever.
The Bible story doesn't say how many children Adam and Eve had before or after their two sons outside of a couple of names. The genetic information in human life during that time didn't have a lot of errors in it, unlike today, where siblings would share the same error in their genetic makeup. It wasn't until many years after the beginning that it was forbidden to marry direct relatives; in the beginning, everyone was a direct relative. Even before that was forbidden, many preferred marrying inside families instead of not; things change, we are in a different place than we were back then under totally different conditions.
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@fmf saidWe are all doing just that; I'm asking questions and admitting my point of view based on what I believe to be true. Nothing can only come from nothing, so I believe that everything comes from something, and there is a first cause not caused by anything else. Now, if you think that isn't true, please give me something else! Everything from nothing or everything always was without cause, which is precisely what I believe, except what I believe always was, is transcendent to what we see, to what we call the universe. We date the universe so it has a beginning, so the evidence doesn't fit the universe always was, except by faith, not science.
But this is what you do, isn't it?
Then you label the "facts" you present with words like "objective" and "absolutely true" despite the fact they are simply "your views"
.
@kellyjay saidWe are not "all doing that". I do not label my views on supernatural things as "facts". I do not label my personal views about these matters with words like "objective" and "absolutely true". To blithely say "We are all doing just that" when it is you who does it and not "all" of us, is rhetorical sleight of hand.
We are all doing just that; I'm asking questions and admitting my point of view based on what I believe to be true.
@ghost-of-a-duke said<<Edit: The above is a factual statement fully evidenced.>>
It means that the creation of man in Genesis is a story. We know this because we evolved into our current image.
Edit: The above is a factual statement fully evidenced.
No, it’s not.
It’s your opinion with next to no legitimate evidence supporting it.
@rajk999 saidThe Holy Bible tells people how to live and reveals a lot about God’s character and His heart for His creation.
99% of the bible is there to occupy the minds of people who have nothing better to do. 1% of it has critical information for eternal life. Unfortunately 99% of the people will get caught up with the 99%, and ignore the 1%.
Only greedy milk Christians think eternal life is all that matters.
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@fmf saidIt is not very difficult to say your views about the beginning require no supernatural things as facts when you have not presented anything that I can recall. So tell me, how did it all begin without a supernatural thing involved? Inquiring minds would like to know.
We are not "all doing that". I do not label my views on supernatural things as "facts". I do not label my personal views about these matters with words like "objective" and "absolutely true". To blithely say "We are all doing just that" when it is you who does it and not "all" of us, is rhetorical sleight of hand.
@indonesia-phil saidYou’ve heard of demonic possession, no?
And this from someone who thinks that snakes can talk, dear me.