messianic prophecies

stellspalfie View Profile

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16 Oct '12 11:47

~~robbie carrobie~~
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16 Oct '12 17:452 edits
Originally posted by FMF
Every one of my questions has been on topic. You seem to have either changed your opinion [since page 1 and 2] about the criteria for messianic prophecies, or you made a mistake and not admitting it is more important to to you than being coherent. As a result, your answers have been unclear and evasive. Why not just answer the question about the 400 messianic prophecies in a straight forward way, without the ad hominems?
I have changed nothing because i claimed nothing, i was merely trying to understand
what others thought till you trolled in,
VoidSpirit
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16 Oct '12 17:46
Originally posted by robbie carrobie
FAIL, i made the claim on the basis of what he had written, too bad for you Spanky, and
No they cannot apply to anyone, in fact, you will now state, how its possible for me to
be born of the tribe of Judah and in Bethlehem, both messianic requirements.
quiet a trick to be born of the tribe of judah in a town that didn't exist. but even if the was so, there would be many people born in judah in the town of bethlem. which one of them defeated assyria? which one of them reconstituted israel and judah? which one of them brought all the kings of the world to their knees and brought in world peace?

none of them. there hasn't been a messiah.
~~robbie carrobie~~
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16 Oct '12 17:52
Originally posted by VoidSpirit
quiet a trick to be born of the tribe of judah in a town that didn't exist. but even if the was so, there would be many people born in judah in the town of bethlem. which one of them defeated assyria? which one of them reconstituted israel and judah? which one of them brought all the kings of the world to their knees and brought in world peace?

none of them. there hasn't been a messiah.
Bethlehem Ephrata didn't exist???, but you said anyone could be the messiah, clearly
that's not the case, it was only open to anyone of the Davidic line, which means you
are havering. We are referring to spiritual Israel, the Israel of God, natural Israel
ceased to be representative of Gods Kingdom when it rejected the Christ, the fact of
which the temple was destroyed and the Jews were taken into captivity or killed in their
millions by the Romans under Titus and the temple has never been rebuilt.
FMF
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16 Oct '12 17:531 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I have changed nothing because i claimed nothing, i was merely trying to understand
what others thought till you trolled in,
You claimed "nothing"? That's a strange thing to say. On page 1 you claimed there are about 400 messianic prophecies but later, when pushed to answer whether Isaiah 2:2-4 was one of them, you eventually claimed that it was but that you, and I quote, "cannot think of any valid reasons to substantiate why it is considered a messianic prophecy."

So for how many of the 400 messianic prophecies are you unable to think of any valid reasons as to how they can be substantiated or why they are considered to be messianic prophecies?
VoidSpirit
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16 Oct '12 17:59
why jesus could not have been the messiah. the messiah is supposed to herald in a new messianic age where;

-all the people of the world live in peace without intolerance
-there won't be any predatory beasts anymore
-all the hebrews tirbes will return from diaspora and dwell in the reconstituted kingdoms of israel and judea
-all the nations of the world will recognize the hebrew god
-human crimes and sin will end
-he will rebuild the final temple that will stand forever
-he will defeat the kingdom of assyria *(no longer possible, even by jesus' time there was no longer an assyrian kingdom, someone else beat messiah to it)

the above are actual messianic prophecies that must be fulfilled by the messiah. there is no BS prophecies of being born of a woman or riding into town on the back of an ass in this list.
VoidSpirit
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16 Oct '12 18:011 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Bethlehem Ephrata didn't exist???, but you said anyone could be the messiah, clearly
that's not the case, it was only open to anyone of the Davidic line, which means you
are havering. We are referring to spiritual Israel, the Israel of God, natural Israel
ceased to be representative of Gods Kingdom when it rejected the Christ, the fact of
wh ...[text shortened]... or killed in their
millions by the Romans under Titus and the temple has never been rebuilt.
anyone can be born in a specific town. anyone can ride a donkey. anyone can be tortured. anyone can be born of a woman. are you getting the point yet? only messiah can fulfill actual messianic prophecies.
twhitehead
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16 Oct '12 18:041 edit
Originally posted by stellspalfie
i read recently (admittedly it was probably a biased website) that scholars translating the original hebrew text misinterpreted it. an example given was the 'virgin' birth. christians translated the word 'alma' to mean virgin but in hebrew it simply meant 'young girl'. im no expert in this area (far from it) but i dont understand why the christian tran ...[text shortened]... to understand a text written in a language they fully understand? am i missing something?
Do you believe you are better at understanding the King James version of the Bible (which is written in English) than an Indian man whose first language is Hindi but has learnt English quite well and studied the Bible extensively?

Yes, people have made translations errors and will continue to do so, yes, if we read only the translation we are likely to understand the meaning of the original text than someone who reads it in the original language, and yes, without knowledge of the culture etc of the time we are also likely to understand less. But that is simply a probability, not a fact, and it simply does not follow that any person reading it in the original language is correct and we are wrong.

In addition to this, the modern day Jews are far removed culturally from the writers of the OT and are probably no more likely to have accurate cultural knowledge than any other Hebrew scholar originating from another part of the world (the modern day Jews mostly come from other parts of the world too).
~~robbie carrobie~~
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16 Oct '12 18:091 edit
Originally posted by VoidSpirit
why jesus could not have been the messiah. the messiah is supposed to herald in a new messianic age where;

-all the people of the world live in peace without intolerance
-there won't be any predatory beasts anymore
-all the hebrews tirbes will return from diaspora and dwell in the reconstituted kingdoms of israel and judea
-all the nations o BS prophecies of being born of a woman or riding into town on the back of an ass in this list.
1. he has for those persons who are learning about Gods ways Isaiah 2:2-4
2. beasts are generally used in a figurative or symbolic sense throughout the Bible.
3. No, the Hebrew tribes have no more claim, they rejected the messiah, it is now a spiritual nation, the Israel of God which is a recipient of Gods blessing, natural Isreal has been rejected.
4.People from all nations do recognise the Hebrew God and are learning about his ways, Isaiah 2:2-4
5. humans crimes and sins will end during the millenial reign, which has not yet occurred, nor will occur until the earth is cleansed of wicked people.
6. again temple is used in a figurative sense to be applied to pure worship, already restored.
6. Assyria, Egypt etc etc are symbolic of those who are opposed to the Christ and his rule, even Viuvia Perpetua knew this, your failure to view these things spiritually instead of anything but literally is the reason why you have failed to comprehend them.
7. all are, have been and continue to be fulfilled, with the exception of those details yet to come.
~~robbie carrobie~~
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16 Oct '12 18:11
Originally posted by VoidSpirit
anyone can be born in a specific town. anyone can ride a donkey. anyone can be tortured. anyone can be born of a woman. are you getting the point yet? only messiah can fulfill actual messianic prophecies.
how many people do you know are born of a virgin, anyone,? how many persons do
you know born of the Davidic line, anyone? no, well stop talking nonsense.
stellspalfie
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16 Oct '12 18:16
Originally posted by twhitehead
Do you believe you are better at understanding the King James version of the Bible (which is written in English) than an Indian man whose first language is Hindi but has learnt English quite well and studied the Bible extensively?

Yes, people have made translations errors and will continue to do so, yes, if we read only the translation we are likely to ...[text shortened]... m another part of the world (the modern day Jews mostly come from other parts of the world too).
Do you believe you are better at understanding the King James version of the Bible (which is written in English) than an Indian man whose first language is Hindi but has learnt English quite well and studied the Bible extensively?

i doubt very much that i would be able to. but the when it comes to the bible and the torrah both sides would have an army of equally skilled religious scholars working on understanding the hebrew text. i would think the jewish scholars would have a bit of an advantage. wouldnt they?
twhitehead
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16 Oct '12 18:51
Originally posted by stellspalfie
[b]Do you believe you are better at understanding the King James version of the Bible (which is written in English) than an Indian man whose first language is Hindi but has learnt English quite well and studied the Bible extensively?

i doubt very much that i would be able to. but the when it comes to the bible and the torrah both sides would ha ...[text shortened]... e hebrew text. i would think the jewish scholars would have a bit of an advantage. wouldnt they?[/b]
Maybe so, but that wouldn't make them right. In reality, interpretation and 'understanding' of religious texts usually has far more to do with other things such as personal religious background, influence by others and what the person in question wants to see in the text.
Further, you seemed to be implying that all Jews have one interpretation and all Christians have another interpretation which as we both know is so far beyond over generalization that it isn't even remotely true. There is a wide range of interpretation amongst both groups (with both groups being defined rather loosely). What do you think the interpretation of a Christian Jew would be ie a Christian with Jewish heritage?
twhitehead
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16 Oct '12 18:58
Originally posted by robbie carrobie
how many people do you know are born of a virgin, anyone,?
Hundreds of pregnant girls claim to be virgins. I don't know of any that have been proven to be so - although it is definitely possible in the modern age with artificial insemination. (in fact artificial insemination has always been possible as has getting pregnant without actual penetration).
I wonder whether a lesbian is technically a virgin?
stellspalfie
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16 Oct '12 19:33
Originally posted by twhitehead
Maybe so, but that wouldn't make them right. In reality, interpretation and 'understanding' of religious texts usually has far more to do with other things such as personal religious background, influence by others and what the person in question wants to see in the text.
Further, you seemed to be implying that all Jews have one interpretation and all Ch ...[text shortened]... ou think the interpretation of a Christian Jew would be ie a Christian with Jewish heritage?
it is indeed a very complex subject matter. i didnt intend to imply that christians and jews have completely different interpretations. im guess one of the things im trying to understand is the how different translations validate their translations and if jewish scholars say word 'x' means word 'x' and another bible has changed 'x' to 'y' how to christians justify the use of the word 'y'?
Green Paladin
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16 Oct '12 19:58
Originally posted by twhitehead
Hundreds of pregnant girls claim to be virgins. I don't know of any that have been proven to be so - although it is definitely possible in the modern age with artificial insemination. (in fact artificial insemination has always been possible as has getting pregnant without actual penetration).
I wonder whether a lesbian is technically a virgin?
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VoidSpirit
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17 Oct '12 01:32
Originally posted by robbie carrobie
1. he has for those persons who are learning about Gods ways Isaiah 2:2-4
2. beasts are generally used in a figurative or symbolic sense throughout the Bible.
3. No, the Hebrew tribes have no more claim, they rejected the messiah, it is now a spiritual nation, the Israel of God which is a recipient of Gods blessing, natural Isreal has been rejected ...[text shortened]... ll are, have been and continue to be fulfilled, with the exception of those details yet to come.
none of those things have happened and you know it, or you're completely delusional.