Michael Jackson / Jesus Christ....

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=======================================
Homosexuality isn't a choice, either you are gay or you are not. It's not something that people can pick or choose like a habit (habit being the word jaywill used in his/her post to describe a long list of sins). So therefore your beliefs are condemning people for something they have no choice over.
====== ...[text shortened]... ay the Christian must learn to [b]"walk by the Spirit".[/b]

The only evidence you quoting scripture provides me with is the level of your stupidity.

Claiming that 'being born a thief' and 'being born homosexual' could be considered the same is frankly so dumb it's frightening.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
What i suprise you don't accept it. You still haven't told me what the 'practise of homosexuality is that you don't accept. Are we talking about anal sex Robbie?

I have heard of gay people going straight, but i've heard and know far more people who have gone from straight to gay.

No longer a persucited minority? What about the case of the Gay Prid the latest studies seem to indicate homosexuality is more genetic based than environment.

noobster, why must you try to fathom the details, do you want a detailed description of what constitutes a homosexual act? the Bible states, 'as one would lie with a women', you may interpret that as you see fit. i do not discount hormonal nor other biological factors, but it is a piece of data that has been used unscrupulously to justify a preference or a choice! environment is a huge factor, we cannot deny. you know, Noobster, i once asked a practising homosexual why he did it, 'he simply stated that men know what men like', now you cannot tell me, that his remark is anything but a sexual preference, why i do not know, for are women not beautiful enough, i dunno, it beats the hell out of me!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes i would advocate my own removal in order to keep the congregation clean, no problemo, yes lying is contrary to Biblical principles, but as i have shown you, these principles are more important than my conscience.

Do you then advocate the removal of all who continue to sin? If I recall correctly you are amongst those who believe that it's impossible for human beings to stop committing sin. If so, wouldn't that make for an extremely small congregation?

Are you a member of a congregation? If so, why haven't you had yourself removed?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
The only evidence you quoting scripture provides me with is the level of your stupidity.

Claiming that 'being born a thief' and 'being born homosexual' could be considered the same is frankly so dumb it's frightening.

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The only evidence you quoting scripture provides me with is the level of your stupidity.
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Why is that?

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Claiming that 'being born a thief' and 'being born homosexual' could be considered the same is frankly so dumb it's frightening.
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My logic according to what the New Testament teaches is consistent and sound. That is why you have to call me stupid, (ad homoniem). Why don't you say "The New Testament is stupid"? I'm being consistent with it.

So is that why you try to cut me off from even refering to it? Is that why you say I am stupid to quote it?

Paul's point is that walking by the Spirit is walking with Christ's life available to the forgiven sinner's life. I bet you have nothing better than this salvation by living in union and oneness with Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Do you then advocate the removal of all who continue to sin? If I recall correctly you are amongst those who believe that it's impossible for human beings to stop committing sin. If so, wouldn't that make for an extremely small congregation?

Are you a member of a congregation? If so, why haven't you had yourself removed?

quite simply, because i am a repentant sinner! you do believe in repentance do you not?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i do not discount hormonal nor other biological factors, but it is a piece of data that has been used unscrupulously to justify a preference or a choice!

So after all you're mumbo-jumbo you do believe homosexuality is actually a choice.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
The only evidence you quoting scripture provides me with is the level of your stupidity.

Claiming that 'being born a thief' and 'being born homosexual' could be considered the same is frankly so dumb it's frightening.

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Claiming that 'being born a thief' and 'being born homosexual' could be considered the same is frankly so dumb it's frightening.
================================

If you want to impress me with how intellegent you are as opposed to my alledged stupidity, you can start by reading carefully what I wrote.

I was saying that IF someone said it, it would not matter, regardless how dumb it is or not.

You're missing the point then. Say someone says "I was born a thief" and it is dumb. So what? Someone says "I chose to be a thief" and it is not dumb or is. Makes no difference to Paul's point in Galatians 5 about walking by the Spirit to be freed from the lust of the flesh.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
So after all you're mumbo-jumbo you do believe homosexuality is actually a choice.

mumbo jumbo! and i thought i was reaching you Noobster old friend! sigh..., no look I do not discount environmental nor biological factors, although to the extent to which they determine a persons predisposition to homosexuality, I cannot say, what I do dispute, is that you are fundamentally born and predisposed to become a homosexual, which is a piece of propaganda that has been seized upon and unscrupulously used to justify nothing more than a sexual preference. your attempts at clarity and simplification are noble, but its not so clear cut.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
quite simply, because i am a repentant sinner! you do believe in repentance do you not?

By the criteria you outlined earlier, your "persistent practice" shows that you do not "obey God as ruler rather than men". As such you should be removed.

Your continuing to sin shows that you are not truly repentant. You simply like declaring yourself as such.

From Wiki:
"Repentance is a change of thought and action to correct a wrong and gain forgiveness from a person who is wronged. In religious contexts it usually refers to confession to God, ceasing sin against God, and resolving to live according to religious law. "

Originally posted by Proper Knob
So after all you're mumbo-jumbo you do believe homosexuality is actually a choice.

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So after all you're mumbo-jumbo you do believe homosexuality is actually a choice.
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We're not getting off to too good of a start here.

You're asking the wrong question as far as I am concerned. My point was that it doesn't matter to the teaching of the NT to walk by the Spirit.

You want to evade that don't you? You want to evade the SOLUTION that the Bible presents to these problems, dismiss my explanation quickly as "mumbo jumbo" lean towards your issue of whether one is born homosexual or not.

My point here is that it doesn't matter. The Bible shows God wanting to deliver us from the things which exclude us from participation in the kingdom of God, one of them being homosexuality. And He has the way by making Jesus Christ Himself available to man that His life interweaves with our life. He can overcome all sins.

So we need to walk by the Spirit. Your interest seems to be stuck in whether or not one chose to live in the works of the flesh or was born by nature to live in them.

I think to Christian theology of the New Testament spirituality, it is a red herring, a distraction to the main point of Christ's availability to believers to live through Him.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
By the criteria you outlined earlier, your "persistent practice" shows that you do not "obey God as ruler rather than men". As such you should be removed.

Your continuing to sin shows that you are not truly repentant. You simply like declaring yourself as such.

From Wiki:
"Repentance is a [b]change of thought and action to correct a wrong and ...[text shortened]... o God, ceasing sin against God, and resolving to live according to religious law. "[/b]

yes, but i do not practice sin, i sin involuntarily! if you want to write to the body of elders and have me removed, then go ahead, i do not mind, if it keeps the congregation clean, then so be it,

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=================================
The only evidence you quoting scripture provides me with is the level of your stupidity.
================================

Why is that?

==================================
Claiming that 'being born a thief' and 'being born homosexual' could be considered the same is frankly so dumb it's frightening.
nothing better than this salvation by living in union and oneness with Jesus Christ.

My apologies jaywill substitute stupididty for, gullibilty.

Gotta go away for the weekend. Jaywill i'm not evading anything.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes, but i do not practice sin, i sin involuntarily! if you want to write to the body of elders and have me removed, then go ahead, i do not mind, if it keeps the congregation clean, then so be it,

Did you not claim that "there are greater issue here than my conscience...that being the sanctity of the congregation."? If you so believe in this sanctity, you should remove yourself. To not do so is hypocrisy.

So, you believe your lying is "involuntary"? You believe that you have no choice but to lie?

The reason people jump hard on the issue of whether one was born with a particular sin or not is because they have confidence in what THEY can do.

In other words, they here that this lifestyle is a sin. So since they cannot help it they want to justify themselves. "I can't help being the way I was born."

The point of the Bible is that you couldn't help yourself anyway. You need ANOTHER LIFE.

Man has confidence in himself that he can overcome this or that sin. If he cannot he must live with himself. One way is to resign to the fact that he was born with that nature therefore it is only natural for him to continue.

One can take another route - to strive hard by one's own power to overcome. This may lead to some limited result. More likely it will lead to depression and dispair.

What then is the Gospel ? Jesus Christ overcame it all. And He is risen from the dead. Not only are your sins forgiven but His LIFE, His very life can come into you. His power is available to you. His victory is available to you. His strength against temptation is available to you.

Christ can live in you in a mingled and incorporated way. Jesus can blend with man in the 21rst century. Jesus can merge with you and you two can live a life in "organic" union. His victory can become yours.

So "Walk by the Spirit and you shall by no means fulfill the lust of the flesh" - and that regardless of whether you were born with that lust or chose that lust.

Now you choose to walk by the Spirit. You allow Christ access to your whole soul and His life empowers you. This is the New Testament Grace of God as opposed to the Old Testament Law of Moses.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
My apologies jaywill substitute stupididty for, gullibilty.

Gotta go away for the weekend. Jaywill i'm not evading anything.

Apology accepted.

As for gullibility I would say this - "Jesus Christ is BELIEVABLE".

Such a person to me is believable. I don't think mankind WOULD invent such a Person even if mankind COULD.

I find that Jesus is believable - all things considered.