1. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
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    30 Jun '15 11:391 edit
    Originally posted by FMF
    "Choose"? Surely you accept that people can be sincere and intellectually honest in their disagreement with you and in not believing the same things as you just so happen to believe? How is being tortured for eternity even remotely fair or just as a "punishment"? Where is the moral coherence to it? What notion of fairness and justice can humans draw, emulate and apply from such a far-fetched and depraved notion as the one you propagate?
    The funny thing about hell is this: It is Hyper arrogant of human theists to think a deity capable of breathing in entire universes would have any need to put humans on such a high pedestal that the bad ones go to this mythological hell, deemed by this deity that the humans in question had such potential that the deity had no choice but to punish them.

    What a croc of utter mind robbing BULLSHYTE.

    A deity would know full well (if indeed there was such an entity) that it could just wait out bad people who, being ephemeral, would soon be dead and gone. No need for any such protracted 'punishment'.

    It easy to see how people would be duped by this level of scam. THEY think a deity would put them on such a pedestal that requires such punishment.

    The truth is, such a deity could care less about the comings and goings of mankind.
    It has bigger fish to fry. We are too insignificant to be granted that kind of attention of a deity.

    And of course, there will be the obligatory storm of biblical verses to counter such a despicable attitude, and of course someone will play the 'so now you think you know the mind of god' card.

    So which will it be, theists? Card or verse?
  2. R
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    30 Jun '15 11:521 edit
    Originally posted by FMF
    "Choose"? Surely you accept that people can be sincere and intellectually honest in their disagreement with you and in not believing the same things as you just so happen to believe? How is being tortured for eternity even remotely fair or just as a "punishment"? Where is the moral coherence to it? What notion of fairness and justice can humans draw, emulate and apply from such a far-fetched and depraved notion as the one you propagate?
    "Choose"? Surely you accept that people can be sincere and intellectually honest in their disagreement with you and in not believing the same things as you just so happen to believe?
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You are getting confused OR you are purposely confusing the logic.

    Eternal punishment is not because of disagreeing with me.
    It is because of following a hopeful yet failed rebellion against God and incurring the retribution of God.

    Revelation 20:15 says "And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

    You are cleverly attempting to twist this to mean "And if anyone disagreed with sonship, he was cast into the lake of fire."

    How is being tortured for eternity even remotely fair or just as a "punishment"? Where is the moral coherence to it? What notion of fairness and justice can humans draw, emulate and apply from such a far-fetched and depraved notion as the one you propagate?


    I don't count eternal punishment as "far-fetched". I count it as ultimate outcome of not being reconciled to God.

    To many not being reconciled to God should not be a big deal.
    Apparently it is the ultimate big deal in terms of negative things.

    The other assumption is that there is goodness higher than God to which man should be able to appeal. The cross of Christ was the final appeal available to sinners. And to be clothed in the blood of Christ is the justification provided by God.

    "But rejecting the Son of God should not be a big deal to honest people who disagree."

    You can believe that if you wish. I believe that Christ is man's salvation and justification before God and no higher referee exists.
    It makes sense. The buck stops with God. Hoping that it stops somewhere else above or beyond God is vain hope.

    Christ the Son of God became a curse for me that I would be reconciled to God. I do not underestimate Who it was who died. I do not underestimate the awfulness of sin. I do not underestimate the ultimateness of rejecting God.

    But most of all I do not underestimate the willingness, eagerness, and divine longing that I be reconciled to God.
  3. R
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    30 Jun '15 11:562 edits
    In the other thread I encouraged some (actually all) truth seekers to go spend time to pour out their hearts to God. I wonder if anyone has taken my advice.

    The point was to do such, not to argue about doing such.

    Anyway, I will spend some time here to explain my faith.
    I await divegeester's reply on whether he believes Samuel was existing, non-material, in Hades and was brought up.

    If he agrees then that is a serious step towards accepting that death should be thought of as separation rather than annhilation into non-existence.

    I think divegeesters is considering carefully how he should answer.
  4. Joined
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    30 Jun '15 11:58
    It is because of following a hopeful yet failed rebellion against God and incurring the retribution of God.

    Wrong. Atheist don't rebel against god. We don't believe that a god exists. You can't rebel against something that you feel is not real.

    It's like saying someone rebels against Santa Clause.

    There is also no hopefulness going on. Having no belief in a god is of no emotion at all.
  5. Joined
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    30 Jun '15 12:02
    Originally posted by sonship
    You are getting confused OR you are purposely confusing the logic.

    Eternal punishment is not because of disagreeing with me.
    It is because of following a hopeful yet failed rebellion against God and incurring the retribution of God. .
    If my beliefs are very different from yours ~ i.e. not Christian beliefs ~ and I don't agree with you when you tell me that my life is a "failed rebellion against God and incurring the retribution of God" because I do not share these beliefs and assertions of yours and other Christians like you, according to your ideology I am going to be tortured for eternity as a revenge and punishment, according to you, right?
  6. R
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    30 Jun '15 12:052 edits
    Originally posted by Great King Rat
    Wrong. Atheist don't rebel against god. We don't believe that a god exists. You can't rebel against something that you feel is not real.

    It's like saying someone rebels against Santa Clause.

    There is also no hopefulness going on. Having no belief in a god is of no emotion at all.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    It is curious to me that this is repeated as if I do not understand what is being said.

    The point is that if you turn out to be WRONG and the Bible is truth, you turn out to have been in rebellion against God.

    I understand that you say that there is no God to disbelieve in.
    I got that. But then there is what Jesus was and what Jesus did and what Jesus taught.

    Where are you going to put your trust?
    It is only a matter of TIME to find out where you will be in relation to God (whom you hope is not there).

    So perhaps the next atheist who patiently tries to get me to understand that they don't believe there is a God to disbelieve in, I will only say - "Well, time will tell."

    PS - I would testify that the Holy Spirit coming into you will confirm your decision that to believe into Christ Jesus was right.
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    30 Jun '15 12:05
    Originally posted by sonship
    In the other thread I encouraged some (actually all) truth seekers to go spend time to pour out their hearts to God. I wonder if anyone has taken my advice.
    Third or fourth time of asking. What happens if a fellow believer goes ahead and takes your advice ~ and pours out his heart to God, like you did ~ to seek resolution to this doctrinal problem ~ and comes back having found that you are wrong about "eternal torture", and he is right? How will you react?
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    30 Jun '15 12:10
    Originally posted by sonship
    I don't count eternal punishment as "far-fetched". I count it as ultimate outcome of not being reconciled to God.
    I asked you: "Where is the moral coherence to it? What notion of fairness and justice can humans draw, emulate and apply from such a far-fetched and depraved notion as the one you propagate?" Simply stating that it is, in your personal opinion, an "ultimate outcome" does not address my question. That you do "count" it this or don't "count" it that, isn't an answer either. What you "count" to be this or that, is not evidence of anything. You seem completely unable to address the moral vacuum and utter darkness at the very heart of your ideology. Again and again, you use the same dodges.
  9. Joined
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    30 Jun '15 12:15
    Originally posted by sonship
    The other assumption is that there is goodness higher than God to which man should be able to appeal. The cross of Christ was the final appeal available to sinners. And to be clothed in the blood of Christ is the justification provided by God.
    The question you are dodging is: Surely you accept that people can be sincere and intellectually honest in not believing the same things as you just so happen to believe? Why are they to be punished by your torturer God figure whilst being ~ or perhaps for being ~ sincere and intellectually honest? Where is the moral coherence to that?
  10. R
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    30 Jun '15 12:17
    Originally posted by FMF
    If my beliefs are very different from yours ~ i.e. not Christian beliefs ~ and I don't agree with you when you tell me that my life is a "failed rebellion against God and incurring the retribution of God" because I do not share these beliefs and assertions of yours and other Christians like you, according to your ideology I am going to be tortured for eternity as a revenge and punishment, according to you, right?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Do you have any reason to think you will stop being as you are towards God in eternity ?

    It appears to me that Christ wants to save you from being frozen in that state. And if non-existence is not taught in the Bible then continued sin will call forth perpetual retribution.

    Don't put your hope in:

    1.) God does not exist. Or
    2.) I will not exist once I leave this world in death. Or
    3.) Perhaps a million years from now I can change my mind if I get bored with not being reconciled to God.

    I think you should put your trust in receiving the offer of Jesus Christ as your eternal salvation.

    I don't believe that I, personally, am the main issue. I am just a messenger. I got saved, I think others to whom I bring the message should be saved also.

    Actually, you don't have to follow me around and ask me things. You don't have to try to make me ... the issue.
  11. Joined
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    30 Jun '15 12:21
    Originally posted by sonship
    [b] Wrong. Atheist don't rebel against god. We don't believe that a god exists. You can't rebel against something that you feel is not real.

    It's like saying someone rebels against Santa Clause.

    There is also no hopefulness going on. Having no belief in a god is of no emotion at all.

    --------------------------------------------------------------- ...[text shortened]... y Spirit coming into you will confirm your decision that to believe into Christ Jesus was right.[/b]
    See, but now you are being silly. If indeed you believe “us” when we say that we lack a belief in god… if we have no ulterior motive for saying we don’t believe in a god, but we simply lack a belief in god, and you accept that as the truth… then you cannot possibly say that we are rebelling against god. It makes no sense.

    You’re walking down the street, minding your own business. You get pulled over by a cop, he gives you a $3000 fine for not wearing two different shoes... That’s right, you get a $3000 fine for not wearing two different shoes. There is no law that states that you must wear two different shoes, there are no warning signs, nobody with any kind of authority in this field has ever, ever told you about this law and shown that others have been fined…… could you possibly be said to have been rebelling against said law?

    If you have never heard of this law, nor have you ever been in the position to read about this law, would a $3000 fine be excessive? Would a warning not be better?
  12. The Ghost Chamber
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    30 Jun '15 12:27
    Originally posted by Great King Rat

    It's like saying someone rebels against Santa Clause.
    Hey, leave Santa out of this.

    Worth noting, as an 'atheist' (a term used purely for the benefit of theists who like to view 'us' as a collective) i rather hope God does exist; even though rationalizing that he doesn't. Who wouldn't want to believe in an immortal soul and a purpose for existence?

    My conscience tells me to lead a good a life as possible, to be kind and loving. My reason tells me that if God does exist, then this will be enough for my salvation.

    I am governed by my conscience and my reason; not by mortal words telling me i should do this or that to avoid eternal and disproportionate damnation.
  13. Joined
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    30 Jun '15 12:35
    Originally posted by sonship
    I think you should put your trust in receiving the offer of Jesus Christ as your eternal salvation.
    I believe this "receiving the offer of Jesus Christ as [my] eternal salvation" you speak of is a figment of your imagination. And I am sincere and honest in this belief. I cannot pretend to believe the things you believe. You are unable to communicate something believable to me. The reason I discuss it with you is because I am interested ... well... I'll put it in a separate post, indeed a re-post, because for some unclear reason, I originally put it on the 'wrong' thread.
  14. Joined
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    30 Jun '15 12:41
    Originally posted by sonship
    Actually, you don't have to follow me around and ask me things. You don't have to try to make me ... the issue.
    Some Christians believe that keeping non-believers 'alive' in the afterlife so that they can be burnt in agony forever as punishment and revenge for non-belief ~ even when the non-belief is sincere and intellectually honest ~ is a testament to the Christian God's "glory" and an example of "perfect justice".

    My interest is in:

    ~ what this grotesque and depraved aspect of Christian ideology means for the rest of the ideology,

    ~ whether someone who propagates such noxious and morally incoherent nonsense can speak with any kind of validity or credibility about any form of 'lesser' or imperfect "justice" when the purportedly "perfect" kind is so ludicrous.

    ~ whether any obedience or worship or fear that this utterly demented form of attempted coercion [according to the ideology, anyway] can legitimately be referred to as "love" without the meaning of that word being completely perverted.

    ~ whether there is any semblance of logic in the idea that this "eternal torture" punishment and revenge has one whit of deterrence effect on those that don't believe it ~ the very people it is supposedly supposed to deter [from their non-belief!!].
  15. R
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    30 Jun '15 12:501 edit
    Originally posted by FMF
    You are unable to communicate something believable to me.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Okay. I am willing to leave it right there, as far as you are concerned.

    But by a similar token, you are unable to persuade me that the Gospel of Christ is not the truth.
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