music

Originally posted by duecer
In zen, the loudest sound is silence

😵

Music is an addictive, mind-altering substance. Personally I'm surprised it's not illegal.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
The existence of no opposite means that one doesn't need to associate guilt or any other bad feelings with music.

And yet music can and often does evoke feelings of sadness, sorrow, fear and many other 'bad feelings' - even guilt.
So how does the existence of ugliness cause the beauty in a painting of a landscape evoke guilt? Or is your argument a little flawed perhaps?

It is Mans creation as a stepping stone to return to his /her origonal nature.
'Original nature'? Does that phrase even make any sense? Were we aliens in the past?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Please provide me a link or some reading material which explains music in purely physical terms.
I am happy to stand corrected if an explanation exists.

I am afraid I do not have any links, but basically music triggers certain emotional responses in our brains. It is complex and varied in nature, but hardly unexplainable.

I did not rule out love or beauty, merely pointed out that such notions have their drawbacks whereas as music does not
Of course music has drawbacks, you simply don't want to admit them because it would destroy your whole argument.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
In the book 'So, You Think You're Human?' I read about a tribe that had done away with all culture, music included, barring the production of purely functional grass mats. It seems the tribe underwent some catastrophe and all fun was abandoned in this time of 'great sadness'.

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In the book 'So, You Think You're Human?' I read about a tribe that had done away with all culture, music included, barring the production of purely functional grass mats. It seems the tribe underwent some catastrophe and all fun was abandoned in this time of 'great sadness'.
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Sounds like the American Hippies before Reagan was elected.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Is there anyone at all (in the whole world) , that doesn't like some form of music?
Could music possibly be the only thing that 100% of people appreciate?

Sorry but your premise is false. There are people who experience all music as unpleasant.

Before you decide that rational explanations of music are inadequate perhaps you ought to read a little on the subject? I have read 'This Is Your Brain On Music' by Daniel Levitin and 'Musicophilia' by Oliver Sacks, so I'd recommend those. I'm also a musician. I think you are mistaken on this subject.

Originally posted by twhitehead
And yet music can and often does evoke feelings of sadness, sorrow, fear and many other 'bad feelings' - even guilt.
So how does the existence of ugliness cause the beauty in a painting of a landscape evoke guilt? Or is your argument a little flawed perhaps?

[b]It is Mans creation as a stepping stone to return to his /her origonal nature.
'Original nature'? Does that phrase even make any sense? Were we aliens in the past?[/b]

My subsequent arguement is flawed-as I have already pointed out, but the first line of my OP is the main inspiration for this thread. Everyone likes music, and therefore it may be the single most powerful unifying force in our world.
If you want to find flaws, fine, but if you want to get into the spirit of my OP , then I think a little respect and understanding is in order.

By "origonal nature" I mean what non-dualists refer to as the "ground of all being" . This to my implies that we all share the one conciosness and that our origonal natures are synonomous with that "ground" .I would be happy to expand on this , if you wish.

BTW whitey, I hope you realize that I really appreciate your posts. And when I say "a little respect and understanding is in order" , I do not mean this in a negative way. Its just that I demand respect from everyone I deal with because I believe we ALL deserve it. I dont think of you as some so and so in South Africa. I think of you as an excellent, intelligent being capable of making great changes in a world that desperatly needs them.
I hope you take this post in the right spirit. Thanks dude😉

Originally posted by twhitehead
I am afraid I do not have any links, but basically music triggers certain emotional responses in our brains. It is complex and varied in nature, but hardly unexplainable.

[b]I did not rule out love or beauty, merely pointed out that such notions have their drawbacks whereas as music does not
Of course music has drawbacks, you simply don't want to admit them because it would destroy your whole argument.[/b]

Music has its drawbacks, but does it have opposites? My contention here is that some universal principles do not have opposites,not detectable ones anyway.

You and Lord Shark have come along again and tried to be devisive in a matter which is practcally 100% true,(ie. that everyone likes music of some kind or another).
This is not a borderline matter. I thought it practically went without saying.
Trust you guys to point out the marginal arguements to my origonal contentions.
Sheesh!!! What does a guy have to do to find a common link?

Originally posted by Lord Shark
Sorry but your premise is false. There are people who experience all music as unpleasant.

Before you decide that rational explanations of music are inadequate perhaps you ought to read a little on the subject? I have read 'This Is Your Brain On Music' by Daniel Levitin and 'Musicophilia' by Oliver Sacks, so I'd recommend those. I'm also a musician. I think you are mistaken on this subject.

My premise is false? What? That all people like mucic? give me a break.
If you had to kill all the people that didn't conform to a certain ideology,(and for arguements sake I'm assuming here you want to kill as few people as possible), what would be the determining principle/ideology that you would use to determine who got the chop?
For example if you had to be christian, then more than 75% of the world would die. (rough guess there).
If you had to be a conservative then ....
you see what I'm trying to achieve here?
I'm trying to assert that music is a unifying, universal language that cuts across nearly all boundaries,(I didn't think that last part through entirely).

The point is that i would pick music as the factor for trying to save as many people as possible in my hypothetical scenario. If you know of a more universal factor, please let me know.
And again, thank you dear Lord, your comments are most appreciated and without the likes of you and Whitey I would definatley lose a bit of my edge🙂 cya

It just seems to me that you are going to ridiculous lengths to prove your point. The truth is that music is not particularly unique when it comes to being liked by humans. Your arguments in its support have not been particularly well thought out which implies you want the answer to be true regardless of the reasoning that gets you there.

I would like to propose an even better candidate. Cell phones. They have no opposites, and are loved by everyone. We should give everyone cell phones and it will unite the world and get us closer to our original nature.

Originally posted by twhitehead
It just seems to me that you are going to ridiculous lengths to prove your point. The truth is that music is not particularly unique when it comes to being liked by humans. Your arguments in its support have not been particularly well thought out which implies you want the answer to be true regardless of the reasoning that gets you there.

I would like ...[text shortened]... give everyone cell phones and it will unite the world and get us closer to our original nature.

There have been some recent studies done that show that cell phones "affect" the side of your head (brain) which you generally put the phone to.(So it seems there are negative effects to using them)

Yes, you are right, you could say I'm going to ridiculous lengths. But I do this to get a point across.
Cell phones aren't going to "transport" us to higher dimensions. But music can. Not just music alone, but music mixed with an intelligent,dilligent,couragous and persistent mind,(or an extremely lucky one-but thats another story.)
If you can can name something else that has the same power (without the side effects), please let me know.
I really dont care about being right. I'm trying to put forward a positive notion that I believe can be a key factor in transforming the world.
Do you reckon the world has the potential for positive transformation? I do.
And yes, my reasoning should be sound, otherwise my 'mission' will fail.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
My premise is false? What? That all people like mucic? give me a break.
If you had to kill all the people that didn't conform to a certain ideology,(and for arguements sake I'm assuming here you want to kill as few people as possible), what would be the determining principle/ideology that you would use to determine who got the chop?
For example if ...[text shortened]... ated and without the likes of you and Whitey I would definatley lose a bit of my edge🙂 cya

I'm sorry but yes, your premise is false. Nearly everybody likes music, but a very small proportion don't. Maybe your argument doesn't need the 100% you claimed, but in that case why claim it?

A friend and fellow musician trained as a music therapist and the ethos of his course reflected a similar ideology to "music is a unifying, universal language that cuts across nearly all boundaries" but I'm afraid that an ideology is what that is.

Most people like food, most people use language, most people like stories. These are things we humans get up to. But before you get carried away, reflect on Turbo Folk or New Country as genres of music. They have been used in social contexts to promulgate attitudes and ideas you might find abhorrent.

I don't know what the significance of an 'opposite' is in your view, but I don't really understand how it applies or is of significance. Ordinary language is ubiquitous, but like music it comes in different forms and often is not intelligible to those who haven't learned it. Although music has syntax but no denotive meaning or semantics, the evocative power of music can be dependent on culture. For example, the emotions evoked in listeners to say, eastern european folk music can be quite different for, say, a bulgarian and a uk resident.

So I'm sorry to be negative, but I just don't think it does any good to get carried away. Music is great and ubiquitous to humans. It can move us deeply, but let's not over-egg the pudding.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
There have been some recent studies done that show that cell phones "affect" the side of your head (brain) which you generally put the phone to.(So it seems there are negative effects to using them)

And loud music can make you go deaf. What else is new?

Actually, on the topic of cellphones, I do get headaches if I use them too much and I get the same effect with standing too close to a microwave cooker. I still use both devices but try to keep it to a minimum. I found a hands free set sometimes helped with the cell phone.

Cell phones aren't going to "transport" us to higher dimensions. But music can.
Or so you say. But if you had any reasoning to back that up, then you should have started with that, not some ridiculous assertion about the uniqueness of music with regards to its universal appeal.

If you can can name something else that has the same power (without the side effects), please let me know.
I might try if I understood what you meant in the first place.

I really dont care about being right. I'm trying to put forward a positive notion that I believe can be a key factor in transforming the world.
Do you reckon the world has the potential for positive transformation? I do.
And yes, my reasoning should be sound, otherwise my 'mission' will fail.
Seems like you are contradicting yourself. First you admit that you don't care about being right, then you admit that it is a prerequisite to success.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Is there anyone at all (in the whole world) , that doesn't like some form of music?
Could music possibly be the only thing that 100% of people appreciate?

when you say that all people everywhere like music you are simply making a general assumptions. a very general assumption. sure people like music. but some may like that nut lady gaga while others enjoy beethoven. some love death metal and the screams and grunts characteristic to them is music.

so yes, all people like music. all people like food as well. they also like breathing air. general assumptions are true but they lack a certain "i found something that took me sometime to reason and few others know so i am sharing" that all debates should have

Originally posted by Lord Shark
Sorry but your premise is false. There are people who experience all music as unpleasant.

Before you decide that rational explanations of music are inadequate perhaps you ought to read a little on the subject? I have read 'This Is Your Brain On Music' by Daniel Levitin and 'Musicophilia' by Oliver Sacks, so I'd recommend those. I'm also a musician. I think you are mistaken on this subject.

they haven't found the right music yet. i submit the idea that there isn't a single person in the world capable of hearing that wouldn't find some "collection of sounds" as pleasant. and that can be called their favourite music