My Feb Awake! magazine just arrived.

There should be less emphasis on pre-marital sex and more focus on education. From parents and schools.Childrens sexuality has been swept under the carpet for too long and its time to wake up to this fact less another few thousand unplanned pregnancies a spwaned in nother week or so.

Its a shame that some parents put their religous dogma intstead of practical,down-to-Earth advice to their young teenagers. Common sense should prevail but ,alas, not always:'(

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Well put, beetle!
On the postitive side Huxly can be a great example of the intellectual and metaphysical trappings of the 'world'. His erudite body of work is a great refrence for humans and their failings. Fiction and non-fiction alike.
I have a great deal of admiration for writers like Huxly, although as you point out, his stance(s) has it short- ...[text shortened]... ves and potential life mistakes.
Why are there 84000 sutras? Because there are 84000 follies!

Huxley is a great writer😵

Originally posted by twhitehead
I apologize if I came across as 'Mr Badass'. I am just pointing out that your criticism of people who believe sex outside marriage to be wrong needs more justification than:

[b]Since when when did expressing love through the pysical act of sex become seriously wrong? [/b]

No problem.

I admit my wording was pretty terrible, and thank you for pointing it out, but sometimes i just don't have quite the amount of time i need to get my view across. But i will make a more considered posts below.

Originally posted by Ice Cold
Yeah, those non sex havin crazy kids. I waited until I found a willing partner. 😕 😞


So what's the deal here, you think they're nerds for waiting until marriage?

No.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Chastity does prevent AIDS to a large degree. Getting people to implement the solution is the problem. The Catholic Church's main error has been in rejecting the use of condoms - for reasons other than chastity and in so doing ignoring the fact that many people are promiscuous.
I must point out though that it is not just the Catholic Church who are again ...[text shortened]... at some of the condom shortages in East Africa were due to pressure from US based pentecostals.

thankyou, an excellent statement, showing the practicality of scriptural principles making them more relevant today than ever they were, however, its a little like saying, i warned you so.

Originally posted by black beetle
Huxley is a great writer😵

Huxely found a pretence for his desires, a justification, yes he was not cured of his delusion, for had he realised that to base his understanding on an assumption, the assumption that life is meaningless, and as we know, anything based on an assumption is on shaky ground, me thinks that he would have found that life is full of meaning. The great paradox for me is, that anyone, who, after taking Lysergic acid diethylamide and having ones mind opened to the beauty and design inherent in both animate and inanimate things, could have come to such a conclusion. Holy blade of grass. 😵

Originally posted by twhitehead
When and where sex is acceptable is largely a cultural matter. There are plenty of good reasons in various cultures for restrictions - and plenty of bad reasons. You mention "without breaking any national law", but surely national law is a critical part of the discussion - as it is largely based on customs and is one of the means by which people hope to d ...[text shortened]... ct like it is something you have only just come across, is unique to JWs and is hilarious.

I feel there is two topics of discussion here. The issue of sex before marriage and the issue of the JW article.

I am sure you aware the vast majority of Christians believe that sex outside marriage is at a minimum morally shady

Not in my experience. I've been led to believe that, but the few church going Christians i have met in my life had sex outside of marriage. I think the more fundamentaist elements of Christianity would like us to believe that sex outside of marriage is morally shady, but i believe most Christians don't.

What i found particularly amusing about the article was the choice of lanugauge. You see, i fit into the type of person that this article is aimed at - Dating with a view to marriage, i'm not married but i do have a girlfriend. So this article particulalry resonates with me. Some sample phrases -

'relationship clean in God's eye'
'remain morally clean'
'committing a serious wrong'
'tempted to become overly intimate'
'giving in to improper desires'
'dating in the company of a wholesome group, or responsible chaperone'
'Scripturally appropriate expressions of affection'

The language used portrays the act of having sex as some sort of dark, seedy, dirty, innapropriate behaviour. What sort of image is that to plant into somebodies head? The article seemed to be aimed at merely scaring people. Add Robs 'dangers of pre-marital sex' statement into the mix and the overiding image i have in my head is fear!!

I find it some what offensive and an insult to my intelligence that i cannot pratcise safe sex simply because i am not married, which is what is being implied. If i spend ten minutes making some wedding vows it then magically become all ok. I'm out of danger.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
I feel there is two topics of discussion here. The issue of sex before marriage and the issue of the JW article.

[b]I am sure you aware the vast majority of Christians believe that sex outside marriage is at a minimum morally shady

Not in my experience. I've been led to believe that, but the few church going Christians i have met in my life had aking some wedding vows it then magically become all ok. I'm out of danger.[/b]

it pertains to elevate the Bibles point of view dear Noobster, that pre marital sex is morally wrong (whether you agree with it or not is a different matter) One cannot escape this fact. The bible is quite clear and if i may state, there is as yet, not one valid argument as to why this should not be the case, other than a self willed abhorrence of anothers moral principles.

Sex is not viewed as a dark and seedy nor dirty and inappropriate, we are quite open on this, that it is a wonderful and loving provision to show affection to ones marriage mate, to distort our perspective in this way i think is unkind.

It also seems to me that you may justify just about anything and simply stating that it insults your intelligence is not a justification at all. We have taken a moral stance, based on the understanding of scripture, regardless what others practice. We think that practice has shown that those who adhere to these principles will be happy in doing so. If you can provide any evidence to the contrary then let it be heard, that we may examine it in principle and hold it to the light of reason.

My second point is about chastity itself.

If religious people think they can stop young people and even older people having sex i personally think they are hopelessly deluded. They'd have more chance going down to the beach and trying to stop the tide coming in. Zero.

It's what we evolved to do, it's what every living organism on this planet does. The desire and impulse to have sex has to overide everything else otherwise we'd all disappear.

The US, which is a predominantly conservative Christian country has the highest rates of teenage pregnancy in the developed world.

The significant drop in teen pregnancy rates in the 1990s was overwhelmingly the result of more and better use of contraceptives among sexually active teens. However, this decline started to stall out in the early 2000s, at the same time that sex education programs aimed exclusively at promoting abstinence—and prohibited by law from discussing the benefits of contraception—became increasingly widespread and teens’ use of contraceptives declined.“After more than a decade of progress, this reversal is deeply troubling,” says Heather Boonstra, Guttmacher Institute senior public policy associate. “It coincides with an increase in rigid abstinence-only-until-marriage programs, which received major funding boosts under the Bush administration. A strong body of research shows that these programs do not work.

http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2010/01/26/index.html

Conversly Holland, with it's liberal attitudes towards sex and drugs has the lowest combined teenage preganancy and abortion rates in Europe.

Education is the key, not abstinence and fear as projected in the JW article.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
it pertains to elevate the Bibles point of view dear Noobster, that pre marital sex is morally wrong (whether you agree with it or not is a different matter) One cannot escape this fact. The bible is quite clear and if i may state, there is as yet, not one valid argument as to why this should not be the case, other than a self willed abhorrence of ...[text shortened]... ry then let it be heard, that we may examine it in principle and hold it to the light of reason.

Rob, i've not distorted anything.

I've merely copied the wording direct from the text.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Huxely found a pretence for his desires, a justification, yes he was not cured of his delusion, for had he realised that to base his understanding on an assumption, the assumption that life is meaningless, and as we know, anything based on an assumption is on shaky ground, me thinks that he would have found that life is full of meaning. The great pa ...[text shortened]... oth animate and inanimate things, could have come to such a conclusion. Holy blade of grass. 😵

One can see whatever one wants in his own atomic garden
😵

Originally posted by Proper Knob
My second point is about chastity itself.

If religious people think they can stop young people and even older people having sex i personally think they are hopelessly deluded. They'd have more chance going down to the beach and trying to stop the tide coming in. Zero.

It's what we evolved to do, it's what every living organism on this planet does. ...[text shortened]... in Europe.

Education is the key, not abstinence and fear as projected in the JW article.

I agree with all the views you have presented here Proper Knob.
I have a 14 year old daughter and , of course, her sex life is all but beyond my control. So yes I try to educate. I dont want her to become pregnant 'accidently'. However I also don't want her to get married to someone without having 'sampled' them first.
Really , getting married without first having had sex is a huge risk in many ways. Especially emotionally.In fact I would say its irresponsible to get married without having had sex first.
How can you commit to someone without knowing as much about them as possible?
This is not just about the physical aspect, its mainly about the emotional aspect and to see how a prospective husband/wife would act faced with that sort of intimacy.
If you were going to buy a sports car , you would want to test drive it first. That may not be the best analogy but I believe its apt. This should be an age on information and making informed choices. Its not about keeping the blinkers on and hoping for the best. Robbie...

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Rob, i've not distorted anything.

I've merely copied the wording direct from the text.

yes Noobster you have, you put a slant on it, like any good editor would and tried to portray that we are saying that sex is seedy, sinful etc, this is not true and is a distortion of the facts. Sex is to be enjoyed, within the realms of marriage. Anyone who applies these biblical principles in there life shall be happy and shall be protected from certain dangers associated with pre marital sex. You state that as long as one wears a condom and engages in safe sex then this is acceptable, why this should be regarded as better than marriage i do not know, nor is it stated.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I agree with all the views you have presented here Proper Knob.
I have a 14 year old daughter and , of course, her sex life is all but beyond my control. So yes I try to educate. I dont want her to become pregnant 'accidently'. However I also don't want her to get married to someone without having 'sampled' them first.
Really , getting married witho ...[text shortened]... informed choices. Its not about keeping the blinkers on and hoping for the best. Robbie...

putting the blinkers on? clearly you have not the slightest idea what you are talking about? a person is encouraged to get to know the other person in all types of settings, in company, on a one to one basis, how they deal with their parents etc etc, clearly you have not the slightest idea what you are talking about.

Secondly those countries who traditionally do not engage in pre marital sex, have the lowest divorce rates of any country globally in comparison to those who do, clearly you have not the slightest idea what you are talking about, for if you compare America, United Kingdom etc etc where one in two or three marriages end in divorce by those who find it expedient to leave there partners for another on some pretext and who have engaged in pre marital sex, what has that got to say about your 'try before you buy', fallacy, yes that is correct, you have not the slightest idea what you are talking about.

I despair for the kinds that must listen to such moral inconsistency, i really do, for kids need direction and guidance, to be able to act wisely in any given situation, and here we have the moral equivalent of nothingness. well done the new liberalism!

Perhaps i should quote the relative figures for those who succumb to depression after having engaged in pre marital sex with those who have not, what will happen to your psychological argument then? yes, you had better get your broom out and start sweeping.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes Noobster you have, you put a slant on it, like any good editor would and tried to portray that we are saying that sex is seedy, sinful etc, this is not true and is a distortion of the facts. Sex is to be enjoyed, within the realms of marriage. Anyone who applies these biblical principles in there life shall be happy and shall be protected from ...[text shortened]... acceptable, why this should be regarded as better than marriage i do not know, nor is it stated.

Rob, i've copied the wording from the text word for word, how i can put a slant on that i don't know. The article only mentions the word 'love' twice, and both times in relation to God and parents, no mention of love and sex.

You state that as long as one wears a condom and engages in safe sex then this is acceptable, why this should be regarded as better than marriage i do not know

Who said anything about safe sex being 'better' than marriage, you've erected an argument i never made. You were talking about the 'dangers' of pre marital sex ie pregnancy and STD's. The practical solution to that problem is to wear a condom. Abstinence is the utopian dream yes, but unfortunately we have to live in the real world.