Originally posted by josephwI thought it was clear enough what I meant, but let's break it down to painfully obvious questions.
But you didn't ask me that.
Yes I'm sure there have been drunks and greedy people in my church. Although I didn't ask them.
If anything I'm probably the worse one there.
Do you know of any confirmed drunks in your church?
Do you know of any confirmed greedy people in your church?
If you do know of any drunks, why hasn't your church thrown them out?
If you do know of any greedy people, why hasn't your church thrown them out?
If you are the worst drunk in your church, and the most greedy person in your church, why hasn't your church thrown you out?
Originally posted by jammerI'd be interested to know how you can tell whether a gay is 'gay by nature', and whether others are 'straight by nature'.
Homosexuals have no chance by this standard.
Condemned at birth.
Every gay i've ever met is gay by nature, just as others are straight by nature.
It's NOT a choice IMO.
You are what you are.
Who amoung you could change your sexuality if you chose to?
Therefore, if a gay acts on his/her nature .. they sin. If they "look on" someone with lust in thei ...[text shortened]... conception?
Hey God, what's up with that? You just like to torture some people or what?
Seriously. How can you tell? What is it about a person you meet that enables you to deduce that they've always been like that?
Is Michael Jackson pale-skinned by nature?
Originally posted by orfeoUsually doesn't even enter the equation. Don't dwell that much on other peoples sexuality. I can't "tell" .. I assume everyone is straight until evidence to the contrary.
I'd be interested to know how you can tell whether a gay is 'gay by nature', and whether others are 'straight by nature'.
Seriously. How can you tell? What is it about a person you meet that enables you to deduce that they've always been like that?
Is Michael Jackson pale-skinned by nature?
I can only tell that i'm straight by nature. It's never been something i've questioned .. it's natural.
I assume that most people are the same about their sexuality. They follow what is natural.
I also assume that many gays are confused about their sexuality during adolescense, not understanding why they're attracted to their own sex when society tells them that "normal" people are straight.
I'm sure that alot of homosexuals are living a lie and pulling it off quite well.
The closet.
No question that some are able to hide their sexuality, shouldn't have to, but still happens a lot IMO.
you ask .. "What is it about a person you meet that enables you to deduce that they've always been like that?"
Nothing at all.
I don't think about a persons sexuality at all when I first meet them. It's such a small part of the whole person that unless there's an attraction it doesn't enter my mind.
Originally posted by jammerLook, I agree that it's only a small part of a person - and that the church shouldn't be so hung up this issue.
Usually doesn't even enter the equation. Don't dwell that much on other peoples sexuality. I can't "tell" .. I assume everyone is straight until evidence to the contrary.
I can only tell that i'm straight by nature. It's never been something i've questioned .. it's natural.
I assume that most people are the same about their sexuality. They follow what is na ...[text shortened]... he whole person that unless there's an attraction it doesn't enter my mind.
But the whole question of whether homosexuality is something you're 'born with' is critical to what you said about people being 'condemned from birth'. You have to assume that people WERE born homosexual for that to make any sense.
As I understand it, a lot of the churches that don't accept homosexuality also don't accept that people are just 'born that way'.
It seems to me a little bit too easy to assume that a person who is either straight or gay at a particular point in time has always been straight or gay. People seem to accept that there's a 'gay gene', when actually the science doesn't say that. There is evidence that it's partly genetic AND partly environmental.
There's a gene that predisposes people to alcoholism, but I don't tend to hear people accepting that alcoholics are just 'born that way' and shouldn't try to stop drinking. So what's the difference? Why are people born gay and become alcoholics?
Originally posted by orfeoIf you reread you'll see that my 1st post in this thread started with "Just my opinion" .. and that's all it is.
Look, I agree that it's only a small part of a person - and that the church shouldn't be so hung up this issue.
But the whole question of whether homosexuality is something you're 'born with' is critical to what you said about people being 'condemned from birth'. You have to assume that people WERE born homosexual for that to make any sense.
As I unders ...[text shortened]... So what's the difference? Why are people born gay and become alcoholics?
I've personally never met anyone who decided for themselves what sexuality they would be. I have met gays that made the attempt to "pass" for straight, and am sure that many are still "passing" today that I don't know (or care) about. I've never met a hetro that wished he/she were gay and tried to change or pass as gay.
It gets real confusing for me when we add bi-sexuality to the equation. What are these? people who can't or won't chose? or just people with a hyperactive sex drive? or just "natural" bi-sexuals?
I don't have an answer for bi-sexuality .. it flies in the face of my "natural" theory. It seems more like confusion or a hyper-active sex drive to me.
I don't remember deciding i'd be straight. The way I remember it my little peepee simply pointed at everything female when I turned 11 or 12 and that settled the issue. It was natural .. for me.
I do assume people are born homosexual just as others are born hetro. Bi-sexuality I just don't understand at all but will give the benifit of the doubt that they are "naturally" what they are.
All because I can't concieve of anyone choosing to be homosexual. I don't believe I could force myself to be anything other than what I naturally am when it comes to sex.
What any Church has to say about it is meaningless to me.
I don't know if theirs a gay gene or not. I just don't know anyone who had to think it over before determining their sexuality.
I don't doubt for an instant that a child is influenced by their environment and could be programed somewhat in their sexuality.
I participated with the older boys in a couple of circle-jerks when I was about 12. Didn't make me turn gay, if anything, it clarified for me what my sexuality was. The first time I found my older brothers Playboy mag settled the issue for life.
It's those funbags .. just gotta touch 'em.
I can't answer your question about gay/alcholism being genetic (sp), just don't know.
Lots of things in life are a mystery.