1. Hmmm . . .
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    21 May '08 06:27
    I suspect that people do things for a lot of reasons. If I do something “good” (generous, compassionate, whatever) for someone because I want to, is that by definition selfish? (I don’t mind the tag, so cannot be offended by it.) Does it matter?

    If I do something “good” for someone because I think that I should—well, does that mean that I simply want to do whatever I think that I should do? Does the decision to do what I think I should mean that I have placed some value on the should such that it becomes a want?

    Does an act of moral “good” require, to be called such, that I absolutely do not want to do it—for any reason? Must I somehow feel “bad” about doing good? If I feel “good” about doing good, does that make it less virtuous? (After all, I like to feel “good”.)

    Is it possible for morally good actions to simply flow from a person’s character, without any reflection about want or should at all?

    What about morally evil acts? Most of the most egregious ones that you could list, I find that I simply have no desire to commit. Is that morally virtuous on my part?

    I have never found morality—at least on the theoretical level—to be as simple and straightforward as some people seem to. I’m not at all sure that following some prescribed set of rules (shoulds) in all circumstances solves the problem. There is a quote that I stumbled on some time back that I like—

    “When it comes to shaping one’s personal behavior, all the rules of morality, as precise as they may be, remain abstract in the face of the infinite complexity of the concrete.”

    —Hans Urs von Balthasar, Presence and Thought: An Essay on the Religious Philosophy of Gregory of Nyssa (from the Foreword).

    _________________________________________

    If someone follows some religion simply to attain an after-life reward (or any other kind of reward), I would say that is selfish by definition (as I say, I don’t mind the label myself, so neither find nor intend it to be offensive).

    However, I would also say that it is a pragmatic choice, not necessarily a moral one—that is, that it has nothing necessarily to do about morality one way or the other. How one goes about following that religion—what they are willing to condone or condemn, for example, in order to follow it—that certainly has moral implications.
  2. weedhopper
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    23 May '08 04:19
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    You should rethink this. While I'd agree that the vast majority behave as you've outlined, there are those who "do good" simply because it's the right thing to do. Hopefully someday you'll be one of those people.
    ...and doing good is the right thing to do" because our Saviour defined it for us as such.
    As for the insults and bully-tactics you, Scotti, and Twit employ, this will be my last corresponce with you three. All I did was answer a question about why I act and believe as I do. Civilized people debate issues--maybe you don't agree that Christ is the Son of God, or that He rose from the dead, or that He died so that all may live...that's acceptable. Personal attacks and calling me a liar are NOT acceptable. Thus, it ends now.
  3. R
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    23 May '08 05:162 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    In a recent thread I came across this:

    Originally posted by PinkFloyd
    [b]My "real values" would be to respond to someone who did me harm or insulted me by cutting off his head and ----ting down his neck. Another would be to exact revenge on another by going after his family, as that would likely hurt the offender more than anything I could do atheist do all the right actions but for the wrong reasons, why don't I get credit?
    [/b]
    If a person does the 'right thing' for the wrong reasons does he still get credit? If a person is doing the 'right thing' in order to get to heaven, wont Jesus see through it?

    Most Christians on this site are Protestant who disavow the doctrine of "works"; they believe salvation is a matter of faith, not following moral prescriptions. Doing the right thing is unimportant to them, it is the belief in Jesus that matters.

    For Catholics it is a slightly different focus. You may have performed a moral act, but without the attendent virtues. So for example, if you help an elderly woman across the road, and this is done to achieve some personal advantage, then you have not acted out of virtue. You may not have sinned, but neither have you done a virtuous act. The act, therefore, does not get you into heaven because you have not enacted the graces of sacramental life: i.e. love, faith, hope, charity, fortitude, etc.
  4. Cape Town
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    23 May '08 06:18
    Originally posted by PinkFloyd
    ...and doing good is the right thing to do" because our Saviour defined it for us as such.
    As for the insults and bully-tactics you, Scotti, and Twit employ, this will be my last corresponce with you three. All I did was answer a question about why I act and believe as I do. Civilized people debate issues--maybe you don't agree that Christ is the So ...[text shortened]... s acceptable. Personal attacks and calling me a liar are NOT acceptable. Thus, it ends now.
    I don't think I have bullied you or called you a liar in this thread. I said in my first post that I probably misinterpreted your words.
    And in the only other post addressed to you in this thread I was asking for clarification - not accusing.
    On the point that this thread addresses, I do not think you are a liar, but I do think you are mistaken. You appear to simultaneously claim that your true nature is selfish whilst also saying you are not selfish. I see that as a contradiction (not a lie).
  5. Joined
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    23 May '08 14:02
    This is what I believe. Someone from RHP actually referred it to me after I was expressing my views of self-motivation.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_egoism

    To get back to the original post, we are trying to justify what weighs more, intentions or actions? According to psychological egoism, I don't think it matters. Our intentions are always motivated by the same self-interest which results in actions. Actions are just the result of the intentions, and since the motivator, self-interest for eternal life, more money, whatever, never changes, then neither the action or the intention is greater than the other.
  6. Joined
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    23 May '08 14:181 edit
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    [b]If a person does the 'right thing' for the wrong reasons does he still get credit? If a person is doing the 'right thing' in order to get to heaven, wont Jesus see through it?

    Most Christians on this site are Protestant who disavow the doctrine of "works"; they believe salvation is a matter of faith, not following moral prescriptions. Doing the ri ...[text shortened]... t enacted the graces of sacramental life: i.e. love, faith, hope, charity, fortitude, etc.[/b]
    Question 1 (with many parts): Why do people choose to have faith in God? What is the motivator? What are you getting out of it? Why does it make sense to do so to you?

    I suspect eternal life, or comfort, or for answers, or because we were told to. If you say it's because it's the right thing to do, then you are yearning to be righteous, which is self-interest, is it not?

    Question 2: Can you provide an example of a truly virtuous act, please?
  7. Joined
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    23 May '08 14:371 edit
    Originally posted by PinkFloyd
    ...and doing good is the right thing to do" because our Saviour defined it for us as such.
    As for the insults and bully-tactics you, Scotti, and Twit employ, this will be my last corresponce with you three. All I did was answer a question about why I act and believe as I do. Civilized people debate issues--maybe you don't agree that Christ is the So s acceptable. Personal attacks and calling me a liar are NOT acceptable. Thus, it ends now.
    I only spoke the truth to you regarding selfishness. Why do you equate that with "insults and bully-tactics"? The truth will make you free.
  8. weedhopper
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    23 May '08 16:03
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    I only spoke the truth to you regarding selfishness. Why do you equate that with "insults and bully-tactics"? The truth will make you free.
    When you speak the truth, perhaps you will indeed be free. And will see yourself as you truly arre. Until then, ...
  9. weedhopper
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    23 May '08 16:081 edit
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Hopefully someday you'll be one of those people.[/b]
    people like you? I think I'll pass.
  10. weedhopper
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    23 May '08 16:12
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I don't think I have bullied you or called you a liar in this thread. I said in my first post that I probably misinterpreted your words.
    And in the only other post addressed to you in this thread I was asking for clarification - not accusing.
    On the point that this thread addresses, I do not think you are a liar, but I do think you are mistaken. You app ...[text shortened]... e is selfish whilst also saying you are not selfish. I see that as a contradiction (not a lie).
    Who said anything about THIS thread? Your behavior is known to me from other forums where you most definitely sunk to their level. Just because you've managed to avoid being a bully on this particular thread is hardly reason for praise.
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    23 May '08 16:383 edits
    Originally posted by PinkFloyd
    people like you? I think I'll pass.
    You can always remain the person you are:
    "My "real values" would be to respond to someone who did me harm or insulted me by cutting off his head and ----ting down his neck. Another would be to exact revenge on another by going after his family, as that would likely hurt the offender more than anything I could do to him personally. There are MANY other things I would do if I had only myself to answer to, but it so happens that Christianity doesn't jive with "my values"; therefore, I do my best to jive with Christ's."

    "Acting righteously" isn't the same a being righteous.

    The above doesn't sound like someone with his heart in the right place. Perhaps if it was, you'd be able to see the truth.
  12. weedhopper
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    23 May '08 17:551 edit
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    You can always remain the person you are:
    "My "real values" would be to respond to someone who did me harm or insulted me by cutting off his head and ----ting down his neck. Another would be to exact revenge on another by going after his family, as that would likely hurt the offender more than anything I could do to him personally. There are MANY other t th his heart in the right place. Perhaps if it was, you'd be able to see the truth.
    .--- --- ... -. ---.. --..-- ...-- -....
  13. Joined
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    23 May '08 18:11
    Originally posted by PinkFloyd
    .--- --- ... -. ---.. --..-- ...-- -....
    I'm sorry. Was there something you wanted to say?
  14. weedhopper
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    23 May '08 18:17
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    I'm sorry. Was there something you wanted to say?
    "I said good DAY" 😛😉
  15. Joined
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    23 May '08 19:13
    Originally posted by PinkFloyd
    "I said good DAY" 😛😉
    Boys will be boys I guess.
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