1. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    31 Dec '11 15:03
    No Middle Ground


    Christ was either who and what He claimed to be or he was the worst fraud and imposter

    the world has ever known. No ordinary 'good man' would make such outrageous claims.


    Boston Lad
  2. Standard memberRJHinds
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    31 Dec '11 15:07
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    [b]No Middle Ground


    Christ was either who and what He claimed to be or he was the worst fraud and imposter

    the world has ever known. No ordinary 'good man' would make such outrageous claims.


    Boston Lad[/b]
    The atheist believe the latter.
  3. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    31 Dec '11 15:12
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    [b]No Middle Ground


    Christ was either who and what He claimed to be or he was the worst fraud and imposter

    the world has ever known. No ordinary 'good man' would make such outrageous claims.


    Boston Lad[/b]
    I disagree.
  4. Standard memberRJHinds
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    31 Dec '11 15:23
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    I disagree.
    That goes without saying. You are a disagreeable _. _. _. 😏
  5. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    31 Dec '11 15:55
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    That goes without saying. You are a disagreeable _. _. _. 😏
    That's as maybe, but I'm actually referring to two distinct lines of reasoning whereby one might conclude that Jesus was nothing more nor less than a good and well-intentioned ordinary human being.
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    31 Dec '11 16:27
    I think believing in Jesus Christ is a miracle. I think to believe involves something supernatural.

    But God is willing.
  7. Standard memberRJHinds
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    31 Dec '11 16:35
    Originally posted by jaywill
    I think believing in Jesus Christ is a miracle. I think to believe involves something supernatural.

    But God is willing.
    It can't be a miracle because anyone can do it.
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    31 Dec '11 16:471 edit
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    It can't be a miracle because anyone can do it.
    Anyone may believe. But I still think believing into Christ involves a supernatural transaction. Regeneration is a miracle.

    How would you feel about this passage ?

    " Jesus answered and said to them, Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up in the last day." (See John 6:43,4)

    Sometimes I think to myself "It is really a miracle that I believe this book." Do you ever feel that ?
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    31 Dec '11 16:51
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    [b]No Middle Ground


    Christ was either who and what He claimed to be or he was the worst fraud and imposter

    the world has ever known. No ordinary 'good man' would make such outrageous claims.


    Boston Lad[/b]
    You are not accounting for a common oversight: We have no written document attributable to Jesus as the actual author. Everything said about him including everything we have in document form that he allegedly said, was written by some other author. In that day, these authors would be going often, on hearsay. There are many sources you can find where the historicity of these alleged acts and words of Jesus is brought into question.

    Please do not forget that you are the one who started this thread analyzing and seeking a rational basis for the claims by and about Jesus. A rational basis would begin with the hypothesis that a natural set of human motivations led to the stories that were told, grew in their fabulous details, were written down about Jesus, then were eventually selected, by humans, for sanctification as the Word of God. Jesus didn't write a word of it. Even the words put into his mouth were written by others, based on their memories or how they imagined the events and words of Jesus would have fit their beliefs about him. Just as we each do today. Making Jesus into our own image of him. Theist and atheist alike.

    Of course the Word of God could be argued to have been guided in truthfulness by God. And that's why it's called the Word of God. So you can have it your way, either way.

    Nothing is resolved. No one's mind is changed.

    Happy new year to all.
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    31 Dec '11 16:521 edit
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    [b]No Middle Ground


    Christ was either who and what He claimed to be or he was the worst fraud and imposter

    the world has ever known. No ordinary 'good man' would make such outrageous claims.


    Boston Lad[/b]
    I feel a more insightful evidence as to whom he claimed to be (and therefore the reason he was killed) is debated here:

    http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=142842&page=1
  11. Standard memberRJHinds
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    31 Dec '11 16:55
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Anyone may believe. But I [b]still think believing into Christ involves a supernatural transaction. Regeneration is a miracle.

    How would you feel about this passage ?

    " Jesus answered and said to them, Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up in the last day." ( ...[text shortened]... I think to myself "It is really a miracle that I believe this book." Do you ever feel that ?
    I never thought of it that way. However, I think athesist might think of
    it as a miracle of stupidity.
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    31 Dec '11 16:58
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    I never thought of it that way. However, I think athesist might think of
    it as a miracle of stupidity.
    Maybe to give some kind of mental assent or intellectual agreement does not involve the supernatural. But to receive the Person of Christ and be regenerated, I think, is a miracle of God.

    www.regenerated.net

    Thankfully, the Father is so very willing to receive those who come to Christ.
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    31 Dec '11 17:18
    Originally posted by jaywill
    I think believing in Jesus Christ is a miracle.
    It would be a miracle if I turned christian.

    I don't believe in miracles.
  14. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    31 Dec '11 17:57
    Originally posted by divegeester
    I feel a more insightful evidence as to whom he claimed to be (and therefore the reason he was killed) is debated here:

    http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=142842&page=1
    There is no middle ground, divegeester. There is no debate. You yourself are in fact who and what you claim to be on these

    Red Hot Pawn Public Forums or you are an imposter, a poser and a fraud. Same with Christ during His earthly ministry.

    .
  15. SubscriberFMF
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    31 Dec '11 18:05
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    There is no middle ground, divegeester. There is no debate. You yourself are in fact who and what you claim to be on these Red Hot Pawn Public Forums or you are an imposter, a poser and a fraud. Same with Christ during His earthly ministry.

    .
    You are missing the point. Divegeester is in fact who and what he claims to be on these Red Hot Pawn Public Forums because he posts for himself and engages us without interpreters and intermediaries. So there is, as you say, no debate. However, if others were posting on his behalf, writing things about him, purportedly on his behalf, and still developing the meaning of what he said decades after his death - even though he'd written not word himself - then there would be, and is, a debate. Your OP offers a false dilemma. And that was, presumably, the entertainment that you were seeking to squeeze from it.
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