No pre-tribulaion rapture

Originally posted by checkbaiter
You know full well he is referring to the phrase "caught up" in Thess., where we which are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

I know what he means but just wonder why that word is used and if it is a a real bible teaching? It doesn't seem to be.

Originally posted by galveston75
I know what he means but just wonder why that word is used and if it is a a real bible teaching? It doesn't seem to be.

It is the English form of the Latin word taken from the Latin translation of that verse. The Latin translation was the translation used by Rome.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I have never agreed with a pre-tribulation rapture.

The only 'rapture' will be post-tribulation when Christ finally returns.

All these Christians thinking they're getting a 'free ride' past the worst episode in human history need to think twice about this and what they will do if they are not 'raptured out' pre-tribulation, because it WILL get ugly.

And you'll be right at home.


But you knew that.

Originally posted by HandyAndy
And you'll be right at home.


But you knew that.

You know, it's too bad you came all the way over here for nothing.

The catching up in Thessalonians is a rapture. But it is not a pre-tribulation rapture. It is a rapture at the end of the great tribulation.

In a previous post I wrote if there is no pre-tribulation rapture there will be no tribulation.

So the answer to the rapture puzzle is excruciatingly logical if Christian would simply think about the matter.

Some who were watching and ready as the Lord WARNED, will be taken pre-tribulation. And when they are that will CAUSE the enemy Satan to come down to the earth in a great rage. Therefore the great tribulation will have been absolutely triggered by the first rapture.

The majority of the Christians on earth who were not watching and were not ready will then pass through the time of the great triublation. They will be caught up to Christ in the clouds at its end.

Only in this manner can all most of the contradictory sounding passages on the parousia of Christ in the end times be understood best.

Early rapture is a reward. And only a remnant and minority will most likely be prepared for it. (No I did not say I just KNOW it includes me). I said early rapture is a reward for being ready, watchful, walking in the Holy Spirit as Enoch walked with God.

One moment they will just not be found.
This minority will cause war in heaven with the angels (who after all are the ministering SERVANTS of the redeemed human beings) to drive Satan down from his roaming and accusing the church before God in heaven.

The majority will notice that some minority of believers have been taken.
The majority will then pass THROUGH the great tribulation.
They will be ripened in its heat. They will be caught up (late) at the end.

Any serious questions about this ?

Originally posted by sonship
The catching up in Thessalonians is a rapture. But it is not a pre-tribulation rapture. It is a rapture at the end of the great tribulation.

In a previous post I wrote if there is no pre-tribulation rapture there will be no tribulation.

So the answer to the rapture puzzle is excruciatingly logical if Christian would simply think about the matter.
...[text shortened]... d in its heat. They will be caught up (late) at the end.

Any serious questions about this ?

Since you said you did not watch the video, I will try to explain to you what I believe the pastor is saying.

1. The tribulation comes first upon all believers.

2. Immediately after the tribulation, Christ returns and raptures those believer that remain alive.

3. Then God pours out his wrath on all the unbelievers that take the mark of the beast.

Originally posted by RJHinds

Since you said you did not watch the video, I will try to explain to you what I believe the pastor is saying.

Sure, Discuss it. (Thou critic of Witness Lee, grumble grumble)

1. The tribulation comes first upon all believers.

Tribulation in general, surely comes upon all believers.

The "great tribulation" as its specific period of months, does NOT come upon all believers.

And why not? Because SOME believers will have ALREADY LEARNED the lessons of endurance, within lessons others will learn during the great tribulation.

IE. "Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth." (Rev. 3:10)

1.) Some, SOME Christians will be kept from the trial that is coming on the whole earth. That is kept from its very hour.

2.) Why are they to be kept? They have already demonstrated that they are faithful in keeping the word of Christ's endurance. They have ALREADY learned the lesson of endurance in Christ.

Let's break it down real practical. Say you want to exchange words with your spouse. You want to argue. But one day you learn that as a Christian it is better that when the argument comes, you turn to the Lord. You turn to your spirit and instead of exchanging words you enjoy Christ as your endurance and long suffering in your little daily "tribulation".

I am not joking. If you have LIVED in this way as a Christian, there is a good chance for a pre-tribulation rapture. Jesus deems that you have already LEARNED the lesson of endurance by His grace. As a reward He will keep you from the world wide trial.

The problem of the understandable cyncicism of some teachers is that some argue that the ENTIRE church on earth will be kept from the world wide trial. But the promises to BE kept from Jesus is conditional and of the nature of reward.

2. Immediately after the tribulation, Christ returns and raptures those believer that remain alive.

He comes at the end to rapture those who passed through. Guess what? This will include the majority who did not heed the warning about keeping the world of His endurance. So they DID pass through the world wide trial. And they were not exempt from its hour. They passed through its hour to LEARN crash course style what they should have learned in a minute yet daily way.

IE. "Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabirted earth, to try them who dwell on the earth." (Rev. 3:10)

And if you MISSED the early rapture, missed the train (so to speak), you will likely PASS THROUGH that hour of trial. But the Lord at its end will come and gather you up too.

Everybody is expecting some great world wide Christian revival. There probably will not be a another great spiritual revival. But if SOME overcoming believers are raptured, you better believe that the rest who missed the rapture will decide that they have been robbed by loving the world more than Christ.

When Christ came the first time, it was in many ways a surprise to religion.
Do you think He has changed ?
The rapture will be a surprise as to its manner of occurrence.
Did He not tell us that it would be a surprise ? He did.

"Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes." (Matt. 24:42)

Universal pre-tribulation rapture is not reliable.
Selective pre-tribulation rapture according Christ's warning, makes perfect sense.

3. Then God pours out his wrath on all the unbelievers that take the mark of the beast.

The majority of Christians will be on the earth and will pass through these horrific times. After the worst of these times Christ comes quite publically and openly to rapture the majority of saints that were left to pass through that time.

If we are living Christians today, we do not HAVE to be those who pass through it. We can however, learn to keep the word of His endurance in our daily lives by living and walking in the Spirit.

Living and walking in the Spirit IS the watching and being ready.

Originally posted by sonship

Since you said you did not watch the video, I will try to explain to you what I believe the pastor is saying.

Sure, Discuss it. (Thou critic of Witness Lee, grumble grumble)

1. The tribulation comes first upon all believers.

[b]Tribulation in general, surely comes upon all believers.

[i] The [ ...[text shortened]... and walking in the Spirit.

Living and walking in the Spirit IS the watching and being ready.[/b]

Maybe I don't understand the details but according to the pastor the order is as follows:

1. Tribulation (Great Tribulation).

2. Rapture and return of Christ.

3. Wrath of God.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Maybe I don't understand the details but according to the pastor the order is as follows:

1. Tribulation (Great Tribulation).

2. Rapture and return of Christ.

3. Wrath of God.

If you want to discuss this, I am ready.
Ask a question.
Make an objection.
Point out a problem.

You are just reprinting a sparse little simple outline.
I saw the outline and commented.
If you want to discuss my comments, I am ready.

Originally posted by Suzianne
You know, it's too bad you came all the way over here for nothing.

This is where I found Bobby's poem. I just wanted to make sure I covered all my tracks.

A Christian teacher of the Bible had this to say:

There is no pre-tribulation rapture. The first time the gathering of the saints is mentioned in the NT is in Matthew 24 in Christ's teaching on the end times. There he says that he will return immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24: 29-31). This timing never changes throughout the NT. New info is added but never the timing. I have attached my teachings on this subject. There are two very good biblical books on this subject: "The Blessed Hope" by G.E. Ladd sets the foundation that the gathering is after the tribulation. And "The Pre-wrath Rapture of the Church" by Marvin Rosenthal sets out that the gathering is after the tribulation but before the wrath of God is poured out on the earth.

What is not well understood by many Bible readers is Matthew 24. Verses 1 through 31 contain exhortations to the disciples as Jews of the nation of Israel.

Verses 32 all the way through chapter 25 verse 30 are exhortations to the same disciples as constituents of the new testament church.

As the disciples were of the nation of Israel, it is logical that the gathering and appearance of Christ is spoken of in terms of Israel's future. That would indeed be at the END of the great tribulation. This would be the exhortations of the section Matt. 24:1-31.

As the disciples are also constituents of the church the exhortations would be spoken in terms of pre-tribulation reward of their readiness, their watchfulness, their living in the Spirit of Christ as He may come at ANY moment. These are the teachings of Matt. 24:32 - 25:46.

Proving this outline would require much more time and space.

So then, in the second section, the section within Matt.24:32-25:46 warning concerning pre-tribulation resides. This is a secret rapture of the watching Christians. It is conditional. It is a reward. It is a warning to take heed by Christians.

But in the first section, indeed, there is hardly any secret. Christ publically descends as the lightening and with signs which can hardly be missed.

So the brother wrote only partially correctly -

There he says that he will return immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24: 29-31). This timing never changes throughout the NT. New info is added but never the timing.

Notice, he refers to the first section, verses 29 - 31. He only sees these teachings as relevant to Christ's appearing.

However in the section after verse 31 starting with verse 32 we have such warnings:

Verse 39 - 43 - Watch for the age will be a befuddled and drunken age as the days of Noah. Then two people together will be suddenly discriminated apart. One will be TAKEN and the other will be left -

"For this reason you also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming." (verse 44)

So my Christian friends, get out your pen and paper and I will tell you WHEN Jesus is coming so that you may write it down and KNOW the time. Are you ready ? Here it is -

"AT AN HOUR WHEN YOU DO NOT EXPECT IT, THE SON OF MAN IS COMING." (v. 44)

No lightening. No trumpet to announce the "thief in the night" has come. BANG! When you least expect it, Jesus comes and one will be taken because she watches and is ready, and one will be left because she doesn't.

The parable of chapter 25:1-13 reinforces the teaching. That is the parable of the wise and foolish virgins.

But to the disciples as constituents of the nation of Israel, Christ's coming is with great public and cosmic calamity.

wrong discussion

Originally posted by HandyAndy
This is where I found Bobby's poem. I just wanted to make sure I covered all my tracks.

He's been gone from here for some time.

There's nothing left for you to pin on him, unless you imagine it up.

Originally posted by Suzianne
He's been gone from here for some time.

There's nothing left for you to pin on him, unless you imagine it up.

He pinned himself.

Back to Rapture - Pre-tribulation or Post-tribulation.

The real answer is that both are true. And the reason this is missed by the vast majority of Bible teachers is that they ASSUME that any rapture must include the entire Body of Christians on the earth.

When you make that assumption that EVERYONE has to go up at the same time, you naturally will seek to shoe horn that scenario with passages of your choosing.

Some definitely seem Pre-tribulation.
Some definitely seem Post-tribulation.

So teachers choose which they want and hammer the contrary passages into line.

I now firmly hold and would teach in a moment Selective Rapture in this regard -

Those found watching, prepared, ready for the Lord to come on them suddenly, will be taken pre-tribulation. This will be a minority and a remnant. The majority will be taken at the end of the great tribulation.

That way all the passages, pretty much, make perfect SENSE.
Test it. Give me a problem. It should be tested.