No pre-tribulaion rapture

Originally posted by sonhouse
At last you admit it's a fairy tale. Good boy!

May you rest in peace.

Originally posted by RJHinds

That is right that there is more than one taking up of the saints in rapture.

The time is different.
The place to which they are taken is different.

One is before the great tribulation and is sudden, unexpected, unannounced, and for which every Christian is obligated to be vigilant and watchful for.

Those who fail to be taken will pass through the time of the great tribulation. They still must be prepared. But the expectation of its timing is not as hard to determine.

We know that the great tribulation is three and one half years.
We definitely should prefer to be taken early rather than late.

The taking of overcomers before the great tribulation is indicated in two visions. The two visions relate to whether the overcomers were living or had died.

I mean some overcomers blessed with an early rapture had died in ages and years past. And some overcomers will be alive when that rapture occurs. These will have never tasted physical death.

The living overcomers raptured is seen in the rapture of the Firstfruits in Revelation 14.

The past deceased overcomers raptured is seen in the taking up of the Manchild in Revelation 12.

These two groups will probably raptured in the same time - the living overcomers with the deceased and "sleeping" overcomers of past ages.

The public rapture at the end of the great tribulation is spoken about in the letters to the Thessalonians.

Paul includes himself only because he is a member of the whole universal body and is speaking at that time on behalf of the whole body of believers -

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so also those who have fallen asleep through Jesus; God will bring with Him.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are living, who are left remaining unto the coming of the Lord, shall by no means precede those who have fallen asleep;

Because the Lord Himself, with a shout of command, with the trumpet of God, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Then those who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and this we will be always with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thess. 4:14-18)

This teaching corresponds to the Harvest taken at the conclusion time of the great tribulation in Revelation 14:14-16.

What you have to realize is that before this Harvest is taken, some Firstfruits have already been taken before the great tribulation.

And the corporate Manchild was also previously taken. There can be no argument, I think, that the Manchild will be raptured before the Harvest and before the great tribulation for this reason, briefly:

When the Manchild is raptured to the throne, the three and one half years of the great tribulation commence immediately -

"And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

And the woman fled into the wilderness where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there A THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND SIXTY DAYS." (Rev. 12:6)

I stop here.

Originally posted by sonhouse
einforces my stance.[/b]

Or the truth, there will be no tribulations, no trial, no rapture, just the human race getting itself into its own trouble, painting itself into its own corner by its lack of real intelligence, that intelligence that can tell fairy tales for what they are. Every day that goes by reinforces my stance.

The FIRST coming of Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah was the result of the fulfillment of prophecies. God was faithful. And though there were some surprises, the Christ DID come as expected by the Tanakh reading Jews and Gentiles.

Very much based upon this demonstration of the fulfillment of prophecy, we have strong reason trust that God will AGAIN be faithful.

Christ, according to His prophetic utterances, will come a second time.
It may be in our lifetime. But if not, we Christians believe God will again fulfill prophecy.

The "fairy tale" is that the Son of God will not be totally vindicated universally on this planet. The fairy tale followers are those who fail to grasp that that Man from Nazareth, the Son of God, will be completely vindicated in every way. That is inevitable.

Now if you will excuse us, we will continue to muse over these prophecies and see what we can determine as far as the Lord God will permit.

Why does the Great Tribulation start ? The answer is in Revelation 12:12. We will work our way backwards a bit.

THE CAUSE OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION -

"Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time." (12:12)

WHAT WAS THE CAUSE OF THE DEVIL COMING DOWN ?

The good angels who are the ministering servants of the human heirs of salvation (Hebrews 1:14) drove him down.

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon warred and his angels. And they did not prevail, neither was there place found any longer in heaven.

And the great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent; he who is called the Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole inhabited earth; he was cast to the earth and his angels were cast down with him." (Rev. 12:7-9)

WHY DID THE GOOD ANGELS DRIVE THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS DOWN?

They drove them down because of the rapture of the Manchild, the collective "they" up to the throne of God.

"And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod, and her child was caught up to God and to His throne." (v.5)

For long time Christians did not grasp the connection between the catching up of the man-child and the subsequent spiritual warfare and expulsion of Satan from the third heavens.

The chain of events is clear. The short time of the great tribulation with Satan wreaking havoc on the planet will be the result of the rapture of some overcoming and victorious human servants of God.

At their rapture the voice proclaims -

"Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.

And THEY overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb
and because of the word of THEIR testimony
and THEY loved not their soul-life even unto death.

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them, [good angels and those overcomers just raptured] Woe to the EARTH and the sea because the devil has come down to you [you unbelievers and you who missed the pre-tribulation rapture] and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time." (vs.10-12)

Originally posted by HandyAndy
He pinned himself.

Liar.

YOU insinuated his guilt, where there was none.

I hope you are proud of yourself. Oh wait, you weren't, that's why you apologized to him privately. Too bad you couldn't find the huevos to apologize publicly.

"But, but, but we thought the Manchild was maybe the baby Jesus."

The Manchild specifically is their saints raptured who had been martyred for thier faith -

"THEY loved not their soul-life EVEN UNTO DEATH"

The Manchild is human beings who have enjoyed Christ's redemption -

"And THEY overcame him [the accusing Devil] by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB ..."

The Manchild stand upon the word and promises of God rather than their natural feelings natural arguments natural philosophy -

"And THEY overcame him ... because of the word of their testimony..."

The entire body of God's people is depicted as a woman. That is a universally bright woman. Within the woman, hidden in the woman and one with the woman but distinct is a stronger part - a MANCHILD.

The Manchild within the woman is the stronger part of God's people.
The Manchild is so in the woman that to see the woman is to see the stronger ones in her in addition. But one day these stronger ones will be taken out of the whole body in the sense of early rapture to the throne of God in heaven.

And the weaker majority delivers up the stronger part in rapture - "And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ,

for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down."

The accuser throughout the centuries has been mainly hurling accusation against the weaker majority of God's people. Sure he has. Look at Christopher Hitchen, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennet, and many many other helper "accuser/s of the brothers."

Their accusation is to cause man to HATE the Christian church. That is because Satan hates the Christian church. The accuser pours accusations into their minds.

However, within this whole body of saints there has always been a minority, a stronger component of more normal saints. Some will have died by the end of the age and some will still be living and overcoming.

The rapture, pre-tribulation, will shut the mouth of the hateful accusing Satan and drive him down from hanging around heaven to make accusations against God's people.

The result of this component of the stronger part within the whole being raptured will cause Satan to be driven down limited to the surface of the earth. This will cause him to bring up his FINAL weapon - Antichrist.

And that can be proved by the verses immediately following the rapture and warning of chapter 12 -

"And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.

And he stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns ten diadems, and on his heads names of blasphemy." (Rev. 12:17 - 13:1)

Having been restricted now to the earth, being driven down, Satan summons up the Antichrist as the beast. He is a man. But he is connected to all the past evil empires of human history.

This summoned up beast from the Gentile world (the sea) will be worshiped by any duped human beings on the earth.

"And the whole earth marveled after the beast. And they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like the beast? And who can make war with him? "

You can read this in Revelation 13. Antichrist will probably insult, mock, and ridicule those who were raptured. Perhaps he will say - "We are GLAD that those Christians are gone. Now we can run the planet without them being around."

I do not KNOW that Antichrist will speak this way. But I do read that -

" ... there was given to him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and authority was given to him to act for forty-two months. And he opened his mouth for blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, which tabernacle in heaven." (13:4-7)

Originally posted by Suzianne
Liar.

YOU insinuated his guilt, where there was none.

I hope you are proud of yourself. Oh wait, you weren't, that's why you apologized to him privately. Too bad you couldn't find the huevos to apologize publicly.

I conceded to Bobby in a PM that I had gone too far pushing the joke involving the poetry posted on
two websites. The same message was posted publicly by me in the General Forum. I'd say you need
to find the huevos to read and comprehend before you rant. By the way, Bobby says he didn't share
the PM with you or anyone else, so where did you hear about a private apology? In your crystal ball?

I stand by each and every statement I've made concerning this matter.

I deeply resent being called a liar by a vicious and morally bankrupt harpy like you.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

I'm not sure of pre-trib, mid-trib nor post-trib, but it does not matter...

Don't forget the most important - pan-trib. That means if you trust in Jesus everything will pan out alright.

The Christians on earth are "God's farm" for growing a crop. This crop is Christ growing in man.

When Paul told the Galatians that he labored that Christ would be "formed" in them, it was the same as Christ growing in them. The enemy of God wants by any means to stop this growth.

Here we see Paul fighting the battle that Christ would grow in the Galatians.

"My children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ is formed in you, ... Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law ?" (See Gal. 4:19,21)

God's enemy was using the Law of Moses to frustrate the growth, the forming of Christ within the Christians.

In almost every epistle Satan is using something to stop the forming of Christ, the growth of Christ on God's farm on the earth.

Here Paul is again to the Corinthians -

"I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the growth. So then neither is he who plants anything nor he who waters, but God who causes the growth. ... For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's cultivated land [farm], God's building." (See 1 Cor. 3:7-9)

What does this have to do with rapture? The rapture is a matter of a critical mass of believers growing to the point of being reaped as a ripe crop. A critical mass, known to God alone, must reach ripeness for the first pre-tribulation rapture.

Of course Satan has been fighting to keep people from being saved. But if they get saved Satan fights to keep them from having Christ formed in them. Satan fights to keep Christ from growing in them and to keep them from being built up together in living building of God as a result of this growth.

In Revelation 14 we definitely see that rapture is related to the growth of Christ in God's farm. That is why we have Firstfruits and Harvest in that chapter. Rapture is absolutely related to the formation of Christ in people.

If you are allowing Christ to be formed in you, to grow in you you are in a mighty warfare. You do not realize the stategic battle that God is waging with Satan utilizing you and I. Our growth will bring the Lord Jesus back.

We Christians should consecrate our growth in the spiritual life to God for the turning of the age from the church age to the age of the millennial kingdom. The raptures are the vestibules into this next stage of history. It is no small thing that any believer is seeking to grow in Christ and to help others to grow.

Paul said - "I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the growth. Now he who plants and he who waters are one, but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's cultivated land [or farm], God's building." (1 Cor. 3:6-9)

Growth and rapture are absolutely related.

Understanding that God has a farm on earth to grow Christ in people uplifts our concept of salvation. Salvation is no longer just that the big "ME" can be blessed and be happy.

Jesus said to seek the kingdom of God first and all other things would be added. His kingdom requires that we receive Christ and allow Christ to grow in us.

We do not know the critical mass or the number of believers that mature in spiritual growth that will trigger the first rapture. But we know that there is a threshold.

Christianity may simply regard this rapture time table as completely arbitrary and up to whenever God wants to send Christ back. On one hand it is up to God. On the other hand we play a crucial part by causing people to receive Christ and planting and watering that divine life that it may grow.

What happens to the majority of Christians after a minority, a Manchild, is raptured up to the throne of God. The rest of her seed on the earth flees the dragon to be NOURISHED. Feeding, nourishment, growth is still needed.

"And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days." (Rev. 12:5,6)

Christians need to be nourished now.
After the rapture of the Manchild the Christians will STILL and even all the more need to be nourished.

We may be lazy about being nourished in our spirit today. But when suddenly a remnant of overcoming Christians is suddenly raptured and no longer found, the remainder of the Christians will realize that the great tribulation is upon them. They will be interested in being nourished for certain then.

If you and I love the world more than Jesus now, what will we do when it is realized that some of our brothers and sisters were raptured away? The Christian public will realize that if ever there was a time to eat Christ it is when they see some have been taken away and the great tribulation must be upon them.

So the Lord Jesus gives His warning that some did not delay their lessons. And because they utilized the time wisely to have Christ grow in them through endurance and faithfulness, they will be exempt from the trial coming upon the whole earth. This has to mean a selective pre-tribulation rapture.

"Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth." (Rev. 3:10)

What about those Christians left in the first rapture? They will pass through the trial which is coming on the whole inhabited earth. And they will need much remedial nourishment to prepare for Christ's coming at the end of the three and one half years.

"And the women fled to the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days." (Rev. 12:6)

This definitely should not be any Christian's first choice. For though God will have some servants to feed and nourish the remaining Christians on earth, still He will allow Antichrist to overcome some of them. This will be really bad and hard even though they are being fed within spiritually.

Here we see Antichrist will overcome some of the saints left on earth -

"And permission was given to him [the beast] to make war with the saints and to overcome them; and authority was given to him over every tribe and people and tongue and nation." (Rev. 13:7)

The woman who brought forth the manchild flees from the dragon Satan. Though God is faithful to nourish her, He permits the beast Antichrist to make war with the saints. Some will be martyred. This is part of the trial which is coming upon the whole inhabited earth.

But we can learn Christ in our daily trials, our daily hassles, our daily situations and circumstances - to feed on Jesus and be nourished NOW. Then there is a good chance that we may be raptured pre-tribulation because the essential lessons have been learned in a favorable time.

According to the pastor on the video, the order is as follows:

1. Tribulation (Great Tribulation).

2. Rapture and return of Christ.

3. Wrath of God.

Originally posted by RJHinds
According to the pastor on the video, the order is as follows:

1. Tribulation (Great Tribulation).

2. Rapture and return of Christ.

3. Wrath of God.

Which is all 100% bullshyte. 2000 years is long enough to wait for this supposed rapture. It won't happen in 20,000 years much less in a few years.

Originally posted by sonship

I'm not sure of pre-trib, mid-trib nor post-trib, but it does not matter...

Don't forget the most important - pan-trib. That means if you trust in Jesus everything will pan out alright.

Exactly...🙂 However, I think Christians are spared from the wrath of God...
Rom 5:9
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
NKJV

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Exactly...🙂 However, I think Christians are spared from the wrath of God...
Rom 5:9
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
NKJV

In my next few posts, Lord willing, I will try to include some discussion of that issue.

I think my burden is more on the matter of the growth of divine life.
Look at the pronouncement of the reaping angel even in the end triublation rapture -

"And I saw, and behold, there was a white cloud, and on the cloud One like the Son of Man sitting, having a golden crown on His head and a shrpt sickle in His hand.

And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, Send forth You sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come because the harvest of the earth is ripe.

And He who sat on the cloud thrust His sickle upon the earth, and the earth was reaped." (Rev. 14:14-16)

Christians, WHY will Jesus Christ gather up the believers from the earth ?
Because - "because THE HARVEST OF THE EARTH IS RIPE"

Christians, Why will Jesus come to rapture any Christians from the earth ?
Because ... "the hour to reap has come because the harvest of the earth is ripe."

It is not primarily because Antichrist is around.
It is not primarily because all the Gentiles have had the Gospel preached.
It is not not primarily because there is such trouble on the earth.

It is primarily because of the maturity of life has been reached with God's crop on earth. God's farm, God's cultivated land consists of God growing Jesus Christ in many people.

It is because of the RIPENESS of His plants - the Christians indwelt with Christ growing in them.

This concept is seen again in Mark 4:26-29

"And He said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man cast seed on the earth, And sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and lengthens - how, he does not know.

The earth bears fruit by itself: first a blade, then an ear, then full grain in the ear.

But when the fruit is RIPE, immediately he sends forth the sickle, because the harvest has come." (Mark. 4:26-29)

No growth accomplished in Christ is vain. Whether we live to see Him return or die while maturing, it will never be in vain to grow in Christ. All growth in Christ is profitable to God's kingdom. And in the last days a critical point will come when the Harvest of the earth will become ripe.

God will use the heat of the great tribulation to dry out the worldly water from the crops and cause them to mature. The heat of those last three and one half years will ripen the crop of believers on the earth.

But we need not wait. For there will be a pre-tribulation rapture of early ripened ones - "Firstfruits". This is seen in Revelation 14.

We were born again in order to "grow again".

The harvest of the earth is God's people on earth, the believers in Christ (1 Cor. 3:9). At His first coming to the earth, the Lord sowed Himself into His believers (Matt. 13:3-8,24). All the believers since that time, who have received Him as the seed of life, have become God's crop on the earth. The first-ripe ones will be reaped as the firstfruits to God before the great tribulation, as indicated in vv.1-5. The majority will ripen with the help of the sufferings in the great tribulation and will be reaped, raptured, at the end of the great triublation.

Footnote 15(1), of Rev. 14:15, Recovery Version Bible

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Exactly...🙂 However, I think Christians are spared from the wrath of God...
Rom 5:9
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
NKJV

Rom 5:9
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
NKJV

How we take "the wrath" influences how we take this passage.
I think if "the wrath" means eternal perdition, I agree that the Christian is spared "the wrath" of the eternal perdition.

I think some may be tempted to substitute "the wrath" with "the great triubulation". This will not work at all.

Verse 5 says that we Christians boast in tribulation. Not that we go looking for it, want it or seek it. But if tribulation should come, through Christ, we boast in tribulation -

"Through whom also we have obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand and boast becaise of the hole in the glory of God.

And not only so, but we boast in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces endurance." (Rom. 5:2,3)

Generally speaking, tribulations can produce endurance within Christians who firmly stand in the grace of Christ. This is God using tribulation to strengthen His children into divine endurance.

Now the promise to the saints in Revelation 3:10 is to reward them with early rapture because they have already demonstrated that they have endured through His grace -

"Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth." (Rev. 3:10)

For these "tribulation" has indeed worked endurance. It has worked Christ's endurance in them. In other words it has wrought Christ Himself into their being.

They will be kept from "the tribulation" because some everyday other tribulation has worked Christ's endurance into them.

But what about those who have no well stood in grace enduring in Christ? Not only is there the possibility that this reward will be forgone by them, but that will be left to pass through THE trial, THE great tribulation. That is the plain sense of the passage.

If is completely conditional - "Because you ... I also ...".
And if some fail to meet the criteria for the reward, how can we say that they will be saved from tribulation? We cannot say that they will be saved from passing through - "the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth."

Romans 5:9 does not prove that all Christians will be saved from the great tribulation, just because we are reconciled to God through the death of His Son.

While it may be argued that the wrath of God being poured out on the earth at that time, is not aimed at His people, we cannot insist that the tribulation is not of the same sort that works endurance in His saints.

"And not only so, but we also boast in our tribulation, knowing that tribulation works endurance; and endurance approvedness; and approvedness, hope; and hope does not put us to shame, ..." (Romans 5:3-5a)

Some who have obtained approvedness through endurance, will be raptured pre-tribulation, rewarded by not having to pass through the hour of world wide trial.

Others will gain that lacking approvedness during the time passing through the hour of world wide trial.