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Originally posted by Coletti
What does it mean - to be a "spiritual person"?

I think it means that you are in awe of the world: in awe of nature, of humanity, of our existence. Perhaps it means that you see what others don't: that you take the time to pause and reflect on the world around you. And, perhaps most importantly, that you care.

Originally posted by Darfius
Atheists will know God exists in Hell, and since they won't even have the filtered access they do to Him on Earth, it will by no means be "fun", as Jesus warned.

This is just the sort of statement that makes me doubt God, or perhaps, more correctly, it makes me doubt humans and church.
I think I believe in a higher power. Something must have created all this beauty. But I look at religious folk who are so quick to condemn others to Hell. What gives any human the right to do that?
I see the Bible as the word of men. Men who lived in a small isolated society centuries ago. Yes, it is inspired work, and I agree with basing my lifew on the good teachings. But there are things in the Bible that are wrong. Men were allowed to kill their wives on the possibility of adultery.
I believ all religions are good, and if there is a HEaven, anyone who follows the dogma of their chosen religion is going to Heaven.

Originally posted by sasquatch672
Tell you what...I was raised Irish Catholic and I can't tell you the last time I've been to church. I have real problems with organized religion. But I too consider myself to be a very spiritual person, and my argument for the exis ...[text shortened]... pens when the bus comes? It's the greatest adventure of all!

Hi Sasquatch,

Your first argument has what strike me as at least two fatal flaws. First, even if the amount of stuff making up the universe is constant, it doesn't mean the amount of stuff making up you is constant. For example, there is more material stuff to you know than when you were a baby. Second, even if the stuff that is you is constant, and stays around forever, it's arrangement will change, and its the arrangement that is crucial to defining who you are. If I, for example, rearranged all your atoms by chopping you up into bite-sized pieces, the "you" that people knew, or the "you" with whom you are now subjectively acquainted, would have a hard time surviving the process.

Your second argument is also flawed. First, the law of thermodynamics only applies to the universe as it exists, and so is mute on the topic of where this universe came from before it existed; hence, the first law of thermodymanics cannot pertain to an hypothesis about where the universe came from. Second, a created entity only needs a creator if it has been created. You beg the question by assuming that the universe must have been created. But you have actually given no valid argument as to why the universe must have been created. I agree its existence is very weird, but is its weirdness enough to postulate God the Creator?

(Also, God could have created the creator of the universe, so the creator of the universe need not necessarily be your God).

Even if your arguments are invalid, though, I like the fact that you believe in God!

Originally posted by elvendreamgirl
I don't know if I believ in God. My family is religious. I go to church and I feel good after I have gone. I pray. But I don't believe in miracles. I don't believe that God causes bad things or good things to happen to people. I d ...[text shortened]... at I don't believe in God. But I am not sure that there is a God.

What a refreshing antidote you are to the infinitely dogmatic Darfius!

If I were God, I know who I would save first.

But, unlike Darfius's God, who is going to punish all those who don't believe in him, I wouldn't punish Darfius for not believing in Me. Unless, as a matter of perverse principle, he insisted on it, poor thing.

What would a clever but humane punishment be for him I wonder?

Originally posted by elvendreamgirl
This is just the sort of statement that makes me doubt God, or perhaps, more correctly, it makes me doubt humans and church.
I think I believe in a higher power. Something must have created all this beauty. But I look at religious folk who are so quick to condemn others to Hell. What gives any human the right to do that?
I see the Bible as the wor ...[text shortened]... if there is a HEaven, anyone who follows the dogma of their chosen religion is going to Heaven.

Adultery was punishable by death for men and women (Lev 20:10). I think you are thinking about Islam.

This is just the sort of statement that makes me doubt God, or perhaps, more correctly, it makes me doubt humans and church.
I think I believe in a higher power. Something must have created all this beauty. But I look at religious folk who are so quick to condemn others to Hell. What gives any human the right to do that?

Where in my post did I condemn people to Hell? I am sharing what is the Bible, and it says only belief in Jesus Christ gives one access to Heaven. I have no right to condemn, but God does.

I see the Bible as the word of men. Men who lived in a small isolated society centuries ago. Yes, it is inspired work, and I agree with basing my lifew on the good teachings.

Are you aware the Bible is a collection of writings from 40+ authors over millenia from 3 different continents? Yet it flows as a single book. Hmm.

But there are things in the Bible that are wrong.

Such as? If you mean morally, from whose point of view? Yours or God's? Have you ever questioned why He would demand some of the things He does? Have you looked for a motive? One would say killing is objectively wrong, but what if it's the only way to protect your family? There are extenuating circumstances, and many people don't care to find out what those are if they concern God. Quick to condemn others for condemning, but quicker to condemn the God of the Bible out of hand.

I believ all religions are good, and if there is a HEaven, anyone who follows the dogma of their chosen religion is going to Heaven.

This makes no sense. Many religions are mutually exclusive. They can't all be true. It sounds like you made up a Heaven where people go to. There has to be an absolute Truth, so are you 100% sure that it's the idea that popped into your head? That's a risk.

Atheists will know God exists in Hell

You must have meant to say, "Once in Hell, atheists will know that God exists."

I wonder. How could they know that He exists? If Hell is as you describe it, then your god is not there. We would go from a place where we see no evidence of your god to a place where it is impossible to perceive evidence of your god.

Originally posted by telerion
[b]Atheists will know God exists in Hell

You must have meant to say, "Once in Hell, atheists will know that God exists."

I wonder. How could they know that He exists? If Hell is as you describe it, then your god is not there. We would go from a place where we see no evidence of your god to a place where it is impossible to perceive evidence of your god.

[/b]

If you die and wake up in a place of eternal suffering, I believe you may eventually figure it out.

Originally posted by Darfius
If you die and wake up in a place of eternal suffering, I believe you may eventually figure it out.

But I won't be suffering right? I won't be near your god, which according to you is what I desire most. Therefore I really can't be suffering.

Originally posted by telerion
But I won't be suffering right? I won't be near your god, which according to you is what I desire most. Therefore I really can't be suffering.

For the 505747638th time, God is the source of all happiness, love, joy and peace. You (should you continue to spit in the face of your Maker) will not be privy to any of that, for eternity. You will merely have time for your sins to grow and grow until your suffering becomes unbearable, and then you have eternity to go.

Originally posted by elvendreamgirl
This is just the sort of statement that makes me doubt God, or perhaps, more correctly, it makes me doubt humans and church.
I think I believe in a higher power. Something must have created all this beauty. But I look at religious folk who are so quick to condemn others to Hell. What gives any human the right to do that?
I see the Bible as the wor ...[text shortened]... if there is a HEaven, anyone who follows the dogma of their chosen religion is going to Heaven.

I think you have a fine existential view of things, and in time throught contemplation and life experience you will find the answers you seek. In the meantime though, don't judge us Christain too hard. Darfius does not speak for us, only himself. 😉

Originally posted by Darfius
For the 505747638th time, God is the [b]source of all happiness, love, joy and peace. You (should you continue to spit in the face of your Maker) will not be privy to any of that, for eternity. You will merely have time for your sins to grow and grow until your suffering becomes unbearable, and then you have eternity to go.[/b]

Fire and brimstone! Serve or be destroyed! Submit or burn in unimaginable torment for all of eternity!

"Bow down before the one you serve.
You're going to get what you deserve."

For the 505,747,639th time, you are unworthy to judge another man. Thump your bible all you wish, but do not judge another man, not one. Perhaps you forget that you yourself deserve to burn for all eternity? As a damned creature, you disrespect the Lord by passing judgement you are unworthy to pass. I have warned you about this time and again, and yet you ignore this extrememly basic prinicple, which is repeated numerous time in scripture.

I pity you my friend. Your intent is so good, but your actions are so wicked. May the Lord remove the plank from your eyes. 🙁

Originally posted by Darfius
For the 505747638th time, God is the [b]source of all happiness, love, joy and peace. You (should you continue to spit in the face of your Maker) will not be privy to any of that, for eternity. You will merely have time for your sins to grow and grow until your suffering becomes unbearable, and then you have eternity to go.[/b]

Oh so then it is impossible for me not to want to be near your god if what you say is true. Thus when you say that I do not want to have anything to do with your god and that he will just be obliging me by sending me to Hell, you are speaking irrationally.

Originally posted by elvendreamgirl
[doubt humans and church.
I But I look at religious folk who are so quick to condemn others to Hell.
I see the Bible as the word of men. Men who lived in a small isolated society centuries ago. . Men were allowed to kill their wive ...[text shortened]... ho follows the dogma of their chosen religion is going to Heaven. [/b]

the church is full of human mistakes even if they are well intentioned, but yoiu should read the bible fully then discuss the points within even on this site, you may get the answer or even more questions. your 2nd point religious folk quick to condem others to hell well that is what god will do not humans, so when you here these say words unless you follow this teaching you will go to hell they condem themselves, but if they say this is not gods will so you know the consequences, they leave it to you to decide as god has done. the3rd point the stoning this was the custom as it is one of gods commandments about adultery thou shalt not commit, not just the possibility witness had to be brought before any justice given. same as divorce was just the tearing up of a paper in the sight of the leaders, but the male did not get off scot free . Your 4th point again is similar to your second this is gods judgement if he deems someone good to heaven they go otherwise the fires off hell awiat. Remember the jews followed the dogma when jesus walked the earth and he told them they were not doing gods work. lol