"No true Christian would ______________."

Originally posted by vistesd
Who is “the ruler of the power of the air?” (Don’t simply say, the evil one—there is a deeper metaphor here.) Who is the spirit at work in those who are disobedient? Why would you think that “children” here is less metaphorical than in Matthew?

Who is "the ruler of the power of the air?" (Don’t simply say, the evil one—there is a deeper metaphor here.) Who is the spirit at work in those who are disobedient?

--Well, it's not God. 🙂 Let me know what you have in mind.

Why would you think that "children" here is less metaphorical than in Matthew?

--I don't think 'children' is being used metaphorically. A metaphor uses imagery which is not literally applicable to the thing described, and I think 'children' (or 'sons' in YLT - huios) in this case is a literal descriptor, meaning 'follower' or 'pupil'. Were it interepreted as 'offspring', only then would the term be metaphorical. However, the word huios itself seems to have a broad enough meaning to adequately encompass its subject.

Originally posted by vistesd
"even when we were dead through our trespasses made us alive together with Christ...” While we were still dead? You mean before we saw the truth, believed and repented? With regard to verse 9, I will only say—even works of the head! Even the work of “belief.” Whose faith—or faithfulness—is referenced in verse 8? (Hint: “and this is not of you;” YLT.)

Whose faith—or faithfulness—is referenced in verse 8? (Hint: “and this is not of you;” YLT.)

Jesus Christ's faith... "Jesus the author and finisher of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2). Faith is a gift. And as far as I am aware, not a work of the head. The mind in itself cannot arrive at a steadfast faith in what it cannot comprehend. "The peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus" (Philippians 4:7).

]"even when we were dead through our trespasses made us alive together with Christ...” While we were still dead? You mean before we saw the truth, believed and repented?

Yes, 'dead' in our trespasses. That is, unable to save ourselves. Before a person is 'made alive together with Christ', that person is effectively dead to God (i.e. unable to live righteously).

Originally posted by vistesd
You are aware that all sarx unanimated by pneuma is “dead” (i.e., inanimate, unenlivened) material, right?

You are also aware that soterias (salvation) means making well or whole, preserving, healing? That it is not a juridical term?

You are aware that all sarx unanimated by pneuma is “dead” (i.e., inanimate, unenlivened) material, right?

Sure.

You are also aware that soterias (salvation) means making well or whole, preserving, healing? That it is not a juridical term?

Maybe not as it pertains to someone other than God. But any common word or phrase used in conjuction with God is elevated in meaning to something more significant. I'm not a Hebrew expert, but I seem to remember that is the case. For instance, the command 'arise' has a different connotation when used by God, rather than when it is used between two people. I would venture to say that any term used to refer to an act or command of God will always be used in a juridicial sense.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]Who is "the ruler of the power of the air?" (Don’t simply say, the evil one—there is a deeper metaphor here.) Who is the spirit at work in those who are disobedient?

--Well, it's not God. 🙂 Let me know what you have in mind.

Why would you think that "children" here is less metaphorical than in Matthew?

--I don't think 'c ...[text shortened]... self seems to have a broad enough meaning to adequately encompass its subject.[/b]

Well, we won't quite pick up where we left off, because this time I don't want to spend as many hours at it. Also, there's no sense us continuing argument past a clear impasse.

With regard to this and similar parables, I will follow the exegesis of such as Clement and early church fathers and other theologians over yours, and because I think it makes more sense. I also think that the metaphorical seed/children identity is stronger here than your exegesis implies.*)

For one thing, it preserves John’s insistence that God is agape, against attempts to water that down with such statements as: “Well God is loving, but also wrathful...”; or “Yes, God is a God of love, but also of justice...”; etc.—in order to save either some notion Biblical literality/inerrancy; or because they can’t tolerate the notion that evil people may get only a thousand, or a hundred thousand, years of torment, but it must be eternal (which requires a particular translation of the Greek terms in places where one thinks that it ought to mean “eternal” );** or the preciousness of their own reward for following the rules faith; or just because it’s skandalon.

And a soteriology of healing/whole-making by the God who is a “consuming fire” of agape removes the conflicts implied by a juridical model (such as between pardon and penalty). BTW, I agree with you about “transformation,” and that whole-making is also new-making.

* With regard to the “children of wrath,” I was unclear—it is the whole phrase I was asking about: you’re correct, I think, to bring in “sons” for greater clarity; the NRSV non-gendered language is generally more accurate in terms of meaning (anthropos, for example is a word that includes humans both sexes). Still, it is a clearly metaphorical statement, in a similar way to my saying, “Well, I am a son of springtime.” And behind all such metaphors stands meaning, more powerfully expressed for being put into terms of metaphor, or symbol, or allegory...

As far as “the ruler of the power of air,” I thought you might have some insight into the symbolism of the element of air; I’ll see if I can find anything

** We were working through this—and arguing, of course—on the “God Fails at Salvation?” thread, in which I took the position that the original dilemma simply disappears in the case of whole-making soteriology.

As I say, I am trying to ease up a bit in terms of forum participation, and don’t want to pursue the same topic across too many threads. This is just one (though so far, the best) example that I was given:

http://pantheon.yale.edu/%7Ekd47/univ.htm#1.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]Whose faith—or faithfulness—is referenced in verse 8? (Hint: “and this is not of you;” YLT.)

Jesus Christ's faith... "Jesus the author and finisher of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2). Faith is a gift. And as far as I am aware, not a work of the head. The mind in itself cannot arrive at a steadfast faith in what it cannot comprehend. "The peace of ...[text shortened]... ith Christ', that person is effectively dead to God (i.e. unable to live righteously).[/b]

I tend to agree. (My wife says that my Lutheranism is showing.)

The only thing is that I think “dead” may mean something a bit stronger—ala the parable of the Good Samaritan, with God (or the Christ) as the hated Samaritan, and the man in the ditch being unconscious so as to not even be able to cry out for help... Spiritual death includes being spiritually unconscious—neither the bigotry/hate (toward God) nor the unconsciousness prevent God from saving.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]You are aware that all sarx unanimated by pneuma is “dead” (i.e., inanimate, unenlivened) material, right?

Sure.

You are also aware that soterias (salvation) means making well or whole, preserving, healing? That it is not a juridical term?

Maybe not as it pertains to someone other than God. But any common word or phrase used in co ...[text shortened]... any term used to refer to an act or command of God will always be used in a juridicial sense.[/b]

I would venture to say that any term used to refer to an act or command of God will always be used in a juridical sense.

And I think that is a fundamental error, prominent in Western but not Eastern Christianity. I am not saying that there are no juridical terms in the NT, but that soterias, while being surely “elevated,” as you say, does not become something else.

The counter-argument could clearly be made, of course: that juridical terms need to be viewed differently when applied to salvation.

Also, if one takes seriously that God is agape, and does not try to water that down, then God always acts (even if one accepts the juridical model of pardon or penalty) for the well-being of the beloved—and there is no reason to assume that physical death is some kind of “line in the sand” for God in this regard (note that nothing I am arguing precludes a “hell”—just an eternal “hell,” which would mean that God either fails to save some, or that God does not desire/will to save some; the former means that God’s ability is ultimately limited, the latter that God is not, essentially, agape).

Originally posted by vistesd
Well, we won't quite pick up where we left off, because this time I don't want to spend as many hours at it. Also, there's no sense us continuing argument past a clear impasse.

With regard to this and similar parables, I will follow the exegesis of such as Clement and early church fathers and other theologians over yours, and because I think it ma ...[text shortened]... so far, the best) example that I was given:

http://pantheon.yale.edu/%7Ekd47/univ.htm#1.

...it preserves John’s insistence that God is agape, against attempts to water that down with such statements as: “Well God is loving, but also wrathful...”; or “Yes, God is a God of love, but also of justice...”

I personally don't see those statements as 'watering down' God's unique identity. If God is agape (which He is), does that necessarily mean God is handcuffed and cannot judge? Perhaps the conflict between perfect love and eternal judgment evident in the scripture belies a deeper, richer, more unpredictable element of God's unique Person, which we have yet to grasp (if it is even possible for us to grasp Him as He is in Himself, which I doubt). If agape were to judge, how would agape judge? I would say the variegated meaning of agape's judgement is bound up in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. Take away God's judgment and there would be no need for Christ to die on the cross. The solution to your dilemma is 'Christ crucified', not in removing God's teeth (His eternal judgment) semantically.

That being said, you are entitled to your view. Olivier Clement's opinion carries far more weight than my own, so I don't blame you for marginalizing my opinion in favor of his. After all, he is a church 'father' and I am not. I'm sure you realize, though, that just because he is a church father doesn't mean he isn't full of it. 🙂

Peace.

Originally posted by vistesd
As I say, I am trying to ease up a bit in terms of forum participation, and don’t want to pursue the same topic across too many threads. This is just one (though so far, the best) example that I was given:

http://pantheon.yale.edu/%7Ekd47/univ.htm#1.

What we should be discussing (perhaps in an entirely new thread) is the biblical significance of 'the elect' - those few whom God chose from the foundation of the world to save for eternity. The fact that God has 'compassion' upon whomsoever He wills (the few), and hardens the hearts of all others against Him (the many), is too hard a truth to bear for Universalists. But who does God answer to? No one. Who taught God how to be God? No one. Trying to bend the scriptures in such a way that God's elect seem to disappear is an exercise in futility, in my opinion. Sure, a person may succeed in convincing himself that God's judgments aren't eternal or that all men are eventually saved, but what effect does that have on God? None. How we think God should run the world is of little consequence, and neither does any amount of protest change the result. God always wins, and all we can do is surrender.

EDIT: or rebel. There's a whole other avenue to explore; that God's righteousness is preserved by a person's decision to rebel against Him. But how can He choose us, if we must choose Him? Both are true. If we pretend to know all the underlying aspects of God's grace in action, we may attempt to resolve the issue somehow one way or the other. By doing so we will inevitably be false in what we deny, though correct in what we assert. I feel the reality is much more intriguing and 'far more deeply interfused' than we can imagine.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
What we should be discussing (perhaps in an entirely new thread) is the biblical significance of 'the elect' - those few whom God chose from the foundation of the world to save for eternity. The fact that God has 'compassion' upon whomsoever He wills (the few), and hardens the hearts of all others against Him (the many), is too hard a truth to bear for ...[text shortened]... ality is much more intriguing and 'far more deeply interfused' than we can imagine.

The fact that God has 'compassion' upon whomsoever He wills (the few), and hardens the hearts of all others against Him (the many), is too hard a truth to bear for Universalists. But who does God answer to? No one.

The counter-charge can equally be leveled—for those who think they are among the elect, the notion that Jesus will “draw all to/with/in company with (Greek: pros)” himself, or that all will be made alive in Christ, or that God will be merciful to all—is just too hard to bear. (After all, that might be seen to diminish the value of being one of the elect.)

So, one side reads “all” as if “that just means the “elect.” The other side would include the “elect” as part of all, but not the all themselves. (The passages I have quoted below, I think, also give some hints about the elect, and hence I have quoted them at some length.) In any event, 1st Corinthians 15:22 says “for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ”—not “some” or “a few”!

This goes not only to God as agape, but God as “one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all,” and “all in all.” God is either all-in-all from the beginning, or only becomes all-in-all, not through the soterias of making-whole/making-new, but by ultimate exclusion.

QUESTION: with regard to the elect, are you thinking in terms of Augustinian predestination or Calvinist double-predestination? Or some other understanding?

________________________________

Romans 11:25 So that you may not claim to be wiser than you are, brothers and sisters, I want you to understand this mystery: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "Out of Zion will come the Deliverer; he will banish ungodliness from Jacob." 27 "And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins." 28 As regards the gospel they are enemies of God for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved, for the sake of their ancestors; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 Just as you were once disobedient to God but have now received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they have now been disobedient in order that, by the mercy shown to you, they too may now receive mercy. 32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all. 33 O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! 34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" 35 "Or who has given a gift to him, to receive a gift in return?" 36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever. Amen.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have died. 21 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; 22 for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "All things are put in subjection," it is plain that this does not include the one who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who put all things in subjection under him, so that God may be all in all.

1 Corinthians 15:50 What I am saying, brothers and sisters, is this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, a mystery I tell you: all not will sleep (die), but all will be transformed 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on imperishability, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 When this perishable puts on imperishability, and this mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will be fulfilled: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

Ephesians 1:9 he has made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth in Christ, 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to gather up all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will, 12 so that we, who were the first to set our hope on Christ, might live for the praise of his glory.

Colossians 1:20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all...
______________________________________

If we pretend to know all the underlying aspects of God's grace in action, we may attempt to resolve the issue somehow one way or the other. By doing so we will inevitably be false in what we deny, though correct in what we assert. I feel the reality is much more intriguing and 'far more deeply interfused' than we can imagine.

We are all looking through a glass darkly. This is why, throughout church history, both eternal condemnation and ultimate reconciliation have been acceptable beliefs to hold, with neither one becoming church dogma.

I really like that phrase “far more deeply interfused.” 🙂

This has been a good discussion—I need to rethink the comments I was going to make regarding the parable of the prodigal son...

Originally posted by vistesd
ATY posted this in another thread—

__________________________________

Are you familiar with the logical fallacy called "No True Scotsman"?

Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Press and Journal and seeing an article about how the "Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again." Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do ...[text shortened]... in a negative form, to see what happens when one looks at things from another angle...

Don't know what "True Christian"(TM) is.

From a Catholic perspective, a Christian is simply someone who has been validly baptised.

Originally posted by vistesd
The counter-charge can equally be leveled—for those who think they are among the elect, the notion that Jesus will “draw all to/with/in company with (Greek: pros)” himself, or that all will be made alive in Christ, or that God will be merciful to all—is just too hard to bear. (After all, that might be seen to diminish the value of being one of the elect.)...

Here are some passages to consider:

"And you are living stones that God is building into his spiritual temple. What’s more, you are his holy priests. Through the mediation of Jesus Christ, you offer spiritual sacrifices that please God. As the Scriptures say, “I am placing a cornerstone in Jerusalem, chosen for great honor, and anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.” Yes, you who trust him recognize the honor God has given him. But for those who reject him, “The stone that the builders rejected has now become the cornerstone.” And, “He is the stone that makes people stumble, the rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they do not obey God’s word, and so they meet the fate that was planned for them. But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people. You are royal priests, a holy nation, God’s very own possession. As a result, you can show others the goodness of God, for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light. “Once you had no identity as a people; now you are God’s people. Once you received no mercy; now you have received God’s mercy" (1 Peter 2:5-10).

"For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory. Nothing Can Separate Us from God’s Love. What shall we say about such wonderful things as these? If God is for us, who can ever be against us? Since he did not spare even his own Son but gave him up for us all, won’t he also give us everything else? Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one—for God himself has given us right standing with himself" (Romans 8:29-33).

"And in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved, and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie, that they may be judged -- all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness. And we -- we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth, to which He did call you through our good news, to the acquiring of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thessalonians 2:10-14).

"Put on, therefore, as choice ones of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humble-mindedness, meekness, long-suffering, forbearing one another, and forgiving each other, if any one with any one may have a quarrel, as also the Christ did forgive you -- so also ye; and above all these things, [have] love, which is a bond of the perfection, and let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also ye were called in one body, and become thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing each other, in psalms, and hymns, and spiritual songs, in grace singing in your hearts to the Lord" (Colassians 3:12-16).

"Always remember that Jesus Christ, a descendant of King David, was raised from the dead. This is the Good News I preach. And because I preach this Good News, I am suffering and have been chained like a criminal. But the word of God cannot be chained. So I am willing to endure anything if it will bring salvation and eternal glory in Christ Jesus to those God has chosen" (2 Timothy 2:8-10).

"This son was our ancestor Isaac. When he married Rebekah, she gave birth to twins. But before they were born, before they had done anything good or bad, she received a message from God. (This message shows that God chooses people according to his own purposes; he calls people, but not according to their good or bad works.) She was told, “Your older son will serve your younger son.” In the words of the Scriptures, “I loved Jacob, but I rejected Esau.” Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not! For God said to Moses, “I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.” So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it. For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.” So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?” No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?” When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles" (Romans 9:10-24).

More later...

Originally posted by vistesd
[b]The fact that God has 'compassion' upon whomsoever He wills (the few), and hardens the hearts of all others against Him (the many), is too hard a truth to bear for Universalists. But who does God answer to? No one.

The counter-charge can equally be leveled—for those who think they are among the elect, the notion that Jesus will “draw all to/with/in ...[text shortened]... the comments I was going to make regarding the parable of the prodigal son...[/b]

The fact remains: grace does not come by the law. If a man lives a life of sin, rejecting Christ, he does so unto destruction. The scriptures are clear on that point; the warnings are plentious. Christ's suffering and death on the cross was a propitiation for the sins of all who trust in Him. Even ten million years of suffering doesn't get one any closer to paying the debt for a life of sin and the rejection of God's only-begotten Son. That would be earned through the law, but grace is not earned. Whom God chooses He gives the gift of faith in Christ; to all others He allows their hearts to be hardened against His Son.

Originally posted by vistesd
The fact that God has 'compassion' upon whomsoever He wills (the few), and hardens the hearts of all others against Him (the many), is too hard a truth to bear for Universalists. But who does God answer to? No one.

The counter-charge can equally be leveled—for those who think they are among the elect, the notion that Jesus will “draw all to/with/in the comments I was going to make regarding the parable of the prodigal son...[/b]

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all...

'Bringing salvation to all people' is not the same as saying that all people will receive God's salvation. Though the Lord brings salvation to them, many will reject Him (Christ).

Colossians 1:20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.

The 'things' referred to here are not people. This text is not saying that all 'men' are automatically reconciled to God through the blood of the cross, it is referring to creation itself:

"For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay" (Romans 8:19-21).

(This explains Ephesians 1:10 as well.)

If you continue to read in Colossians it becomes clear that salvation requires trust in Christ, and that salvation is an event which produces results in the present, as well as in the future:

"This includes you who were once far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions. Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault. But you must continue to believe this truth and stand firmly in it. Don’t drift away from the assurance you received when you heard the Good News" (Colossians 2:21-23).

And:

"This message was kept secret for centuries and generations past, but now it has been revealed to God’s people. For God wanted them to know that the riches and glory of Christ are for you Gentiles, too. And this is the secret: Christ lives in you. This gives you assurance of sharing his glory. So we tell others about Christ, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all the wisdom God has given us. We want to present them to God, perfect in their relationship to Christ" (Colossians 2:26-28).

Furthermore:

"And now, just as you accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord, you must continue to follow him. Let your roots grow down into him, and let your lives be built on him. Then your faith will grow strong in the truth you were taught, and you will overflow with thankfulness. Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ. For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature. For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross" (Colossians 2:6-15).

1 Corinthians 15:50 What I am saying, brothers and sisters, is this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, a mystery I tell you: all not will sleep (die), but all will be transformed 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

In this scripture Paul is speaking about the church; the body of Christ. Telling them that, in the end times, some of those who trust in Christ will not die but be 'transformed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye', while those who have died in Christ will be resurrected from the dead. It is clear that victory is exclusively for those who believed in Christ and did not reject Him.

Read earlier in 1 Corinthians 15 and notice how Paul warns believers to remain steadfast in their faith. From this it is clear that men are saved through their faith in Christ:

"It is this Good News that saves you if you continue to believe the message I told you—unless, of course, you believed something that was never true in the first place" (1 Corinthians 15:2).

He then goes on to speak about the victory believers have over death:

"Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die, this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power. But thank God! He gives us victory over sin and death through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 15:54-57).

Paul is not speaking in general terms; he is not addressing all mankind. He is speaking to 'God's chosen ones'; God's 'elect'; those who trust in Jesus Christ and are part of the same body.

Romans 11:25 So that you may not claim to be wiser than you are, brothers and sisters, I want you to understand this mystery: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "Out of Zion will come the Deliverer; he will banish ungodliness from Jacob." 27 "And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins." 28 As regards the gospel they are enemies of God for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved, for the sake of their ancestors; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 Just as you were once disobedient to God but have now received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they have now been disobedient in order that, by the mercy shown to you, they too may now receive mercy. 32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.

In this instance Paul is talking about the Israelites. I'm not sure about His plan for them, exactly, but if we read earlier on in Romans 11 it is pretty clear:

"“Well,” you may say, “those branches were broken off to make room for me.” Yes, but remember—those branches were broken off because they didn’t believe in Christ, and you are there because you do believe. So don’t think highly of yourself, but fear what could happen. For if God did not spare the original branches, he won’t spare you either. Notice how God is both kind and severe. He is severe toward those who disobeyed, but kind to you if you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off" (Romans 11:19-22).

Originally posted by vistesd
QUESTION: with regard to the elect, are you thinking in terms of Augustinian predestination or Calvinist double-predestination? Or some other understanding?

I can't claim to be a student of either Augustinian predestination or Calvinism. That's not to say I don't agree with some aspect of either of those teachings, but that I'm not familiar with their every aspect (enough to say definitively what I am in relation to them). The bible seems clear about what constitutes a member of God's elect (persevering faith in Christ), that sinners are justifed through faith, that faith is a gift, and yet also that salvation can be lost, and that all those who don't have faith in Christ are lost. The truth is spiritually discerned, and not something that can be ironed out and neatly presented in a statement of faith. So I stay clear of those kinds of attempts; the bible's wealth is apprehended spiritually, and I depend on it instead of men's Christologies.

Why so much talk in the bible about faith, if no one needs it? If no one needs faith to be saved, then the NT would only need to be a few pages long; enough to explain the death and resurrection of Christ and how God saved the world through Him -- period. Yet most of the NT deals with living the life of faith, and warnings for those who reject Christ. When I was an enemy of God, before I believed the Good News, the idea of God's chosen people (believers) offended me. If you notice, though, whenever the bible talks about God's elect, there is the stipulation that His elect must live rich lives of praise and thanksgiving to God and love toward all men. Election is nothing to lord over anybody. However, until a person is saved, the idea of God's elect is offensive, and the tempatation will arise to in some way explain away its significance, as if the idea were elitist in some way.

Originally posted by vistesd
I really like that phrase “far more deeply interfused.” 🙂

William Wordsworth:

"And I have felt
a presence that disturbs me with the joy
Of elevated thoughts; a sense sublime
Of something far more deeply interfused,
Whose dwelling is the light of setting suns,
And the round ocean and the living air,
And the blue sky, and in the mind of man:
A motion and a spirit, that impels
All thinking things, all objects of all thought,
And rolls through all things. Therefore am I still
A lover of the meadows and the woods,
And mountains; and of all that we behold
From this green earth . . .