Now only remains a judgement for unbelief

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Jesus spent a great deal of time and effort into teaching what is righteous and that being righteous was essential to "eternal life"/"heaven"/"salvation".

If there "only remains a judgment for unbelief" whether or not one becomes righteous is unimportant. Therefore, the teachings and commandments of Jesus for one to become righteous are also unimportant.

The only righteousness that is acceptable to God is perfect righteousness. In and of ourselves, the best we can offer is--- to quote the Scriptures--- dirty menstrual rags.

When the Lord Jesus Christ spoke of our need, it was not to make us try harder: it was to show us the utter hopelessness of attaining the required goal. He fulfilled all of the Law, but He emphatically underscored one aspect of the Law's intent. Namely, the Law sent the message that upholding the acceptable standard was not possible in the flesh.

The message was further expounded with the revelation that God intended to be our solution; that He was our righteousness. When we hear the message of God's standard, the right response is despair. When we hear the message of God's solution, the right response is ecstatic, overflowing joy. Not necessarily emotional, but people have been known to respond in that manner.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
The only righteousness that is acceptable to God is perfect righteousness. In and of ourselves, the best we can offer is--- to quote the Scriptures--- dirty menstrual rags.

When the Lord Jesus Christ spoke of our need, it was not to make us try harder: it was to show us the utter hopelessness of attaining the required goal. He fulfilled all of lowing joy. Not necessarily emotional, but people have been known to respond in that manner.

NO ONE WHILE IN A STATE OF IMPERFECTION CAN ATTAIN TO PERFECTION, it is impossible. The Scriptures indicate that a person is not righteous, but is declared righteous by virtue of Christ's sacrifice. there is a distinct difference, the only way for perfection to be possible is when sin is gone, for that's what sin is, imperfection. this will only take place during and after the millennial reign of the Christ. if anyone doubts this, then i suggest that you check to see if you can do anything perfectly.

(Galatians 2:15-21) ...knowing as we do that a man is declared righteous, not due to works of law, but only through faith toward Christ Jesus, even we have put our faith in Christ Jesus, that we may be declared righteous due to faith toward Christ, and not due to works of law, because due to works of law no flesh will be declared righteous.  Now if we, in seeking to be declared righteous by means of Christ, have also ourselves been found sinners, is Christ in reality sin’s minister? May that never happen! . . . . . . . . . . I do not shove aside the undeserved kindness of God; for if righteousness is through law, Christ actually died for nothing.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
The only righteousness that is acceptable to God is perfect righteousness. In and of ourselves, the best we can offer is--- to quote the Scriptures--- dirty menstrual rags.

When the Lord Jesus Christ spoke of our need, it was not to make us try harder: it was to show us the utter hopelessness of attaining the required goal. He fulfilled all of ...[text shortened]... lowing joy. Not necessarily emotional, but people have been known to respond in that manner.

You should really consider the implications of your belief. So far as I know, Jesus never spoke of showing "us the utter hopelessness of attaining the required goal." If so, it seems your assertion is that Jesus mislead his many thousands of followers when He told them, "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" as well as many other things. In short, he was lying to them. That would make Jesus less than righteous. That would make Jesus "unacceptable to God".

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
NO ONE WHILE IN A STATE OF IMPERFECTION CAN ATTAIN TO PERFECTION, it is impossible. The Scriptures indicate that a person is not righteous, but is declared righteous by virtue of Christ's sacrifice. there is a distinct difference, the only way for perfection to be possible is when sin is gone, for that's what sin is, imperfection. this will only t ...[text shortened]... served kindness of God; for if righteousness is through law, Christ actually died for nothing.

I'm not sure you understood his post. Did you read the whole thing?

Did you miss the post I made just before his? You haven't responded.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You should really consider the implications of your belief. So far as I know, Jesus never spoke of showing "us the utter hopelessness of attaining the required goal." If so, it seems your assertion is that Jesus mislead his many thousands of followers when He told them, "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" as well as many ...[text shortened]... m. That would make Jesus less than righteous. That would make Jesus "unacceptable to God".

The better translation is "be mature" and not perfect. I tend to think the spirit of Jesus' teachings progress and not perfection.

Originally posted by kirksey957
The better translation is "be mature" and not perfect. I tend to think the spirit of Jesus' teachings progress and not perfection.

Whether it is "perfect", "mature" or "complete" is of little consequence. The level of "perfection" / "maturity" / "completion" of righteousness required is not of just any level, but that of "your heavenly Father". What level of "maturity" do you tend to think God has?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Whether it is "perfect", "mature" or "complete" is of little consequence. The level of "perfection" / "maturity" / "completion" of righteousness required is not of just any level, but that of "your heavenly Father". What level of "maturity" do you tend to think God has?

Well, let me give you an example of why this distinction is of great consequence and not "of little consequence." I know a woman who was in very poor health. Decided to muster the strength to go to church and felt very proud of herself that she physically made it. However, the preacher noticed that she had not attained a level of perfection and had worn pants to the service. He proceeded to berate her in front of the congregation for a good bit of the service.

Now you may argue that this is severe and not the intention of what Jesus said. The problem with the language that you use is that people tend to percevorate on a word like "perfection" and it becomes a real pain in the ass to spiritual maturity. So to answer your question "what level of maturity do I think God has?" I would say a level of maturity that knows that the "journey is about progress, not perfection."

Originally posted by kirksey957
Well, let me give you an example of why this distinction is of great consequence and not "of little consequence." I know a woman who was in very poor health. Decided to muster the strength to go to church and felt very proud of herself that she physically made it. However, the preacher noticed that she had not attained a level of perfection and had wor say a level of maturity that knows that the "journey is about progress, not perfection."

What happened in your example is unfortunate, though seems to have little to do with what Jesus said. Righteousness does not require that a woman not wear pants to church. Evidently just anyone can become a "preacher".

Jesus taught his followers that they were to become righteous. That they were to become one with God just as He was one with God. That this transformation must be complete for "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation". A real obstacle to "spiritual maturity" are those who try to sell "journey" and "progress" in place of the transformation that Jesus taught is required.

God IS righteousness. Therefore the level of righteous maturity is absolute.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
What happened in your example is unfortunate, though seems to have little to do with what Jesus said. Righteousness does not require that a woman not wear pants to church. Evidently just anyone can become a "preacher".

Jesus taught his followers that they were to become righteous. That they were to become one with God just as He was one with God. That ...[text shortened]... d.

God IS righteousness. Therefore the level of righteous maturity is absolute.

When you say this transformation must be complete for eternal life, what does that mean? How would I know if it is complete?

Originally posted by kirksey957
When you say this transformation must be complete for eternal life, what does that mean? How would I know if it is complete?

When you say this transformation must be complete for eternal life, what does that mean?

Was the following unclear?:
"Jesus taught his followers that they were to become righteous. That they were to become one with God just as He was one with God."

How would I know if it is complete?

I don't know that Jesus spoke of any way to KNOW that it is complete. Is it important that you KNOW.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]When you say this transformation must be complete for eternal life, what does that mean?

Was the following unclear?:
"Jesus taught his followers that they were to become righteous. That they were to become one with God just as He was one with God."

How would I know if it is complete?

I don't know that Jesus spoke of any way to KNOW that it is complete. Is it important that you KNOW.[/b]

Yea, it is important to know if I am incomplete if I don't wear a tie to church.

Originally posted by kirksey957
Yea, it is important to know if I am incomplete if I don't wear a tie to church.

Good one.

If you're concerned about wearing a tie, I'd suggest you take another pass or two (or three) at the teachings of Jesus.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You should really consider the implications of your belief. So far as I know, Jesus never spoke of showing "us the utter hopelessness of attaining the required goal." If so, it seems your assertion is that Jesus mislead his many thousands of followers when He told them, "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" as well as many ...[text shortened]... m. That would make Jesus less than righteous. That would make Jesus "unacceptable to God".

If so, it seems your assertion is that Jesus mislead his many thousands of followers when He told them, "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" as well as many other things. In short, he was lying to them. That would make Jesus less than righteous. That would make Jesus "unacceptable to God".
Fallen man can never hope to attain the righteousness of God. The message of the Gospel is that God has come to man... decidedly not the other way around.

God has made His righteousness available through the sacrificial death of the Lord Jesus Christ on the tree. For believers, He is our righteousness.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]If so, it seems your assertion is that Jesus mislead his many thousands of followers when He told them, "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" as well as many other things. In short, he was lying to them. That would make Jesus less than righteous. That would make Jesus "unacceptable to God".
Fallen man can never hope ...[text shortened]... ificial death of the Lord Jesus Christ on the tree. For believers, He is our righteousness.[/b]

I walk in fear of the judgment seat of Christ.

My love for Christ is the strongest motivation to live unto Him. But I am also exceedingly thankful that He has also provided me with the sober fear of His disapproval at the judgment seat of Christ.

This soberness is not a concern for the loss of salvation. It is a concern that I would lose the reward of the kingdom.

I think I started a thread on the Judgment of Christians months ago.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]If so, it seems your assertion is that Jesus mislead his many thousands of followers when He told them, "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" as well as many other things. In short, he was lying to them. That would make Jesus less than righteous. That would make Jesus "unacceptable to God".
Fallen man can never hope ...[text shortened]... ificial death of the Lord Jesus Christ on the tree. For believers, He is our righteousness.[/b]

Fallen man can never hope to attain the righteousness of God

This belief is not based on the teachings of Jesus. Rather it is based on the teachings of others trying to understand what Jesus taught. What's more, it is the antithesis of what Jesus taught. As such, Jesus is your "Lord" in name only. You do not follow Him.

God has made His righteousness available through the sacrificial death of the Lord Jesus Christ on the tree.

This belief is also not based on the teachings of Jesus. Jesus is your "Lord" in name only. You do not follow Him.

For believers, He is our righteousness.

Jesus may be YOUR "righteousness", but as I showed earlier, you cannot reasonably believe Jesus was righteous. So YOUR "righteousness" is NOT the righteousness of God.

You can continue to delude yourself into believing your position is tenable or choose to follow the teachings of Jesus. You can choose to truly make Jesus your LORD.