Now only remains a judgement for unbelief

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Fallen man can never hope to attain the righteousness of God

This belief is not based on the teachings of Jesus. Rather it is based on the teachings of others trying to understand what Jesus taught. What's more, it is the antithesis of what Jesus taught. As such, Jesus is your "Lord" in name only. You do not follow Him.

God has made His righ ...[text shortened]... choose to follow the teachings of Jesus. You can choose to truly make Jesus your LORD.

This belief is not based on the teachings of Jesus.
I must have missed the part in any of the Gospels wherein He told His followers to 'try a little harder, they were almost there.'

Rather it is based on the teachings of others trying to understand what Jesus taught. What's more, it is the antithesis of what Jesus taught. As such, Jesus is your "Lord" in name only. You do not follow Him.
Between me and Paul, I'll take what Paul had to say on the subject. Anytime.

As far as it being "the antithesis" of what was taught, that would mean there is some passage somewhere within the Gospels that has Him telling His followers to keep plugging away. I am confident such a passage doesn't exist. That only leaves the possibility that you would have to take existing passages and misconstrue their meaning. Misconstruing their meanings would then render the rest of the Scripture null, void, meaningless.

Again, between me (or you) and Paul's take on the spiritual life, I'll stick with him.

Jesus may be YOUR "righteousness", but as I showed earlier, you cannot reasonably believe Jesus was righteous.
Well, you certainly said it earlier. By no means did you show it.

You can continue to delude yourself or choose to follow the teachings of Jesus. You can choose to truly make Jesus your LORD.
I cannot possibly hope to make Him Lord: He is Lord, whether or not I do anything about it.

Your statements show an underlying problem that will continue to plague any of our conversations. You are under the false impression that a superficial (no insult intended here) reading of the Gospels can lead to an understanding of the messages therein. The Gospels are among the hardest portions of all of Scripture to comprehend, requiring thousands of hours of legwork by a qualified pastor/teacher.

Joe Sixpack isn't going to pick the Bible up, start thumbing through the four books (although a case could almost be made for adding Acts) and figure he's got a good handle on it. Acting out on the understanding that an unsophisticated (read: lacking a systematic structure) reading lends will land the one so armed in a nut house.

Example: since you first read Mark 9:47, have your eyes led you into sin? If so, you haven't plucked it out, have you? Since not, can you consider yourself a 'follower of Jesus?' Do you hate your parents? Cast out demons? Move mountains?

I could go on and on, but (hopefully) the point is made. Namely, the Gospels aren't as seemingly straightforward as one might consider given their simplicity otherwise. God has a system in mind, and to that end, He established the letters written by Paul, established the pastor/teacher dissemination of doctrine, the orderly function of His Church. That it isn't being followed in full does not eliminate its existence.

Originally posted by jaywill
I walk in fear of the judgment seat of Christ.

My love for Christ is the strongest motivation to live unto Him. But I am also exceedingly thankful that He has also provided me with the sober fear of His disapproval at the judgment seat of Christ.

This soberness is not a concern for the loss of salvation. It is a concern that I would lose the reward of the kingdom.

I think I started a thread on the Judgment of Christians months ago.

That's a horse of a different color.

The rewards available for the good servant are not a guarantee--- meaning, there is no guarantee that any one of His servants are going to receive these rewards. I can't speak for everyone, but I don't fear losing them or not getting them.

My appetite whet by the various descriptions of rewards available armed with my understanding of how imparting these rewards further glorifies the Lord Jesus Christ is what motivates me in my quest for them. Not fear, though.

I guess a case could be made for wanting to avoid the embarrassment necessarily attached to the eventual revealing of my overwhelmingly (both in number and in depth) stupid acts, I just don't see fear as part of the equation overall.

I think your use of the term 'soberness' is more appropriate.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
That's a horse of a different color.

The rewards available for the good servant are not a guarantee--- meaning, there is no guarantee that any one of His servants are going to receive these rewards. I can't speak for everyone, but I don't fear losing them or not getting them.

My appetite whet by the various descriptions of rewards available armed wi ...[text shortened]... of the equation overall.

I think your use of the term 'soberness' is more appropriate.

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The rewards available for the good servant are not a guarantee--- meaning, there is no guarantee that any one of His servants are going to receive these rewards. I can't speak for everyone, but I don't fear losing them or not getting them.
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Many evangelical teachers acknowledge degrees of reward and the gaining or possible loss of reward.

For some strange reason most do not acknowledge degrees of punishment too. So a Christian can be well advized not only to fear losing a reward. She or he can also be well advized to avoid receiving a punishment.

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My appetite whet by the various descriptions of rewards available armed with my understanding of how imparting these rewards further glorifies the Lord Jesus Christ is what motivates me in my quest for them. Not fear, though.
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That is very good. And even John said perfect love casts out fear. Sure, the love of Christ contrains us.

Paul, whom I regard as very mature, spoke of his concern that he would not be disapproved - (disqualified, rejected):

" But I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest perhaps having preached to others, I myself may become disapproved." (1 Cor. 9:27)

He feared that there would be a disconnect between what he preached to people and his daily self control.

Again Paul speaks about perfecting of believers motivated in some part by a fear:

"For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body according to whatt he has practiced, whether good or bad.

Knowing therefore the fear of the Lord, we persuade men ..." (See 2 Cor. 5:10,11)

There is not a strong sense among many Christians about the fear of having to give an account for our Christian life before the judgment seat of Christ.

This is the kind of weakness that someone like ThoushandandOne exploits. But you cannot fight a heresy with another heresy. And you cannot correct a poor teaching with a wrong teaching. The truth is what is needed to correct error.

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I guess a case could be made for wanting to avoid the embarrassment necessarily attached to the eventual revealing of my overwhelmingly (both in number and in depth) stupid acts, I just don't see fear as part of the equation overall.
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Well, we have the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sins. And if we confess our sins He is faithful and rigtheous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The problem for the Christian is in two areas that come to mind:

1.) Suppose I don't confess my sins ?

Suppose I commited an offense against you. But I never, never came to you or to the Lord to confess my error ? If I have opportunity to amend things and I do not ever take the opportunity, and either I die or the Lord returns, then what ?

I have to deal with that sin sometime, don't I?

So there should be a concern over sins we Christians have commited which we have NOT confessed as sins.

2.) There is another point. All us Christians have many mistakes and failures before the Lord.

Suppose we are very strict with others but very merciful only with ourselves? Suppose when we are offended we refuse to forgive? Some Christian brothers and sisters will take an offense with them until they die or the Lord comes back.

Suppose those same saints were always very strict and exacting towards other believers?

The prinicple of the kingdom of the heavens is that a disciple is strict towards his own behavior but accomodating and merciful towards others. We are to be exacting towards ourselves and liberal towards others.

This requires Jesus as our life. This is not the natural tendency of people. We are naturally the opposite of the kingdom principle. We tend to be merciful and accomodating towards ourselves while strict and exacting towards other people.

So for the disciples Jesus says that the merciful shall obtain mercy. That means mercy at the judgment seat of Christ for believers.

The Apostle Paul wished that a certain brother would receive mercy at the judgment seat of Christ. He may have been full of mistakes and shortcomings as a Christian. Yet Paul hopes that he will find mercy in that day because he did render much help to the apostle:

"May the Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chain;

But being in Rome, he sought to find me out diligently and found me.

May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord in that day. And in how many things he served me in Ephesus, you know best." (2 Timothy 1:16-18)

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I think your use of the term 'soberness' is more appropriate.
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Amen.

Originally posted by jaywill
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The rewards available for the good servant are not a guarantee--- meaning, there is no guarantee that any one of His servants are going to receive these rewards. I can't speak for everyone, but I don't fear losing them or not getting them.
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Many evangelical teachers ackn ...[text shortened]... oberness' is more appropriate.
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Amen.[/b]

Good stuff. Let me chew for a spell...

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]This belief is not based on the teachings of Jesus.
I must have missed the part in any of the Gospels wherein He told His followers to 'try a little harder, they were almost there.'

Rather it is based on the teachings of others trying to understand what Jesus taught. What's more, it is the antithesis of what Jesus taught. As such, Jesus is y rch. That it isn't being followed in full does not eliminate its existence.

[/b]You say, "He is Lord, whether or not I do anything about it", but if you followed Jesus you'd know He asked, "Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?"

Clearly the expectation of Jesus is that His followers do more than just profess with their mouths. They must follow His teachings and commandments.

Jesus also said, "Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven...depart from me, you who work iniquity.".

Once again clearly the expectation of Jesus is that His followers do more than just profess with their mouths. They must follow His teachings and commandments.

You seem to be of the belief that it is impossible for "fallen man" to stop committing sin. To this Jesus said, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free...Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever;"

From what you've written it seems that your beliefs are based, not on the teachings of Jesus, but the teachings of others in the Bible, most notably Paul. Perhaps the Bible is your Lord or Paul is your Lord, but Jesus is not your Lord. You follow them instead of the teachings of Jesus.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You say, "He is Lord, whether or not I do anything about it", but if you followed Jesus you'd know He asked, "Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?"

Clearly the expectation of Jesus is that His followers do more than just profess with their mouths. They must follow His teachings and commandments.

Jesus also said, "Not every rd, but Jesus is not your Lord. You follow them instead of the teachings of Jesus.[/b]

what is the will of the father? how can you follow Christs teachings if you do not know what the will of the father is? please tell what the will of the father is? if you are willing to discard the rest of scripture, then you shall not be able to come to an accurate knowledge of the will of the father, so lets test it out, what is the will of the father?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Good stuff. Let me chew for a spell...

Don't worry about ToO's accusations. That's his ministry - a ministry of accusation against Christian brothers.

Originally posted by jaywill
Don't worry about ToO's accusations. That's his ministry - a ministry of accusation against Christian brothers.

well that's rich!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what is the will of the father? how can you follow Christs teachings if you do not know what the will of the father is? please tell what the will of the father is? if you are willing to discard the rest of scripture, then you shall not be able to come to an accurate knowledge of the will of the father, so lets test it out, what is the will of the father?

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Mark 12:30-31

Originally posted by jaywill
Don't worry about ToO's accusations. That's his ministry - a ministry of accusation against Christian brothers.

Actually I point out the fact that many Christians and "Christianity" itself have largely abandoned the teachings of Jesus. Look at the beliefs of Freaky and your own for that matter and it is clear that this is true. Rather than fully embrace the teachings and commandments of Jesus, you choose to deny them.

The truth will set you free.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Actually I was pointing out the fact that many Christians and "Christianity" itself have largely abandoned the teachings of Jesus. Look at the beliefs of Freaky and your own for that matter and it is clear that this is true. Rather than fully embrace the teachings and commandments of Jesus, you choose to deny them.

The truth will set you free.

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The truth will set you free.
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Yes indeed! The truth has set us free.

"they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb". The truth that spiritual warfare is based upon the blood of the Lamb. No Christian, no matter how mature or experienced EVER outgrows his need to apply the blood of Christ against the accusations of Satan.

No Christian, no matter HOW obedient to the teachings of Jesus ever graduates from the need to claim the victory over Satan's accusations through the blood of Jesus.

The blood of Christ is not only for our forgiveness and salvation, it is also the basis by which we overcome Satan. No Christian grows to the extent that he no longer needs the blood of Jesus to shut the accusing mouth of the Devil.

"They overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb." (Rev. 12:11)

Yes the truth does indeed set us free, free from the drip, drip, dripping accusations of Satan designed to weaken the Christian.

Notice that it did not say "They overcame him because they didn't have any more failures."

Notice that it did not say "They overcame him because they never had any more mistakes or sins."

No. They overcame the accuser of the brothers by the redeeming blood of Christ that shuts the mouth of the enemy. To accuse the brothers is Satan's major activity. But we Christians overcome his incessant accusations through the blood of Christ. The truth has set us free.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]===================
The truth will set you free.
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Yes indeed! The truth has set us free.

"they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb". The truth that spiritual warfare is based upon the blood of the Lamb. No Christian, no matter how mature or experienced EVER outgrows his need to apply the blood of ...[text shortened]... ome his incessant accusations through the blood of Christ. The truth has set us free.[/b]

Your post makes my point. Instead of understanding "The truth will set you free" from within the context of the teaching of Jesus, you choose to look elsewhere.

Jesus says that the truth will be made known to His true disciples, i.e., those who continue in HIS word (not Revelations, not Paul, not the Bible) and the truth will make them free from the slavery of committing sin. Those who remain slaves do not dwell in the house forever. Why do you choose to deny this teaching of Jesus?

John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."

Freaky,

The major activity of Satan against Christians is to accuse them. He may be called a murder. He may be called a liar. He is an attacker. But this is not all. His chief work is to accuse.

"The accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night" (Rev.12:10).

Day and night the accuser works. He accuses not only before God but also in our own Christian conscience. He likes to accuse Christians until they are powerless and weak. He likes to accuse Christians until they consider themselves useless and thereby lose all their ground for fighting him.

Of course we have to deal with our sins. Of course we must have a keen sense toward sin, but we should not accept Satan's accusations. Once a Christian accepts Satan's accusations, he will feel tht he is wrong all day long. In the morning he will feel that he is wrong. At every moment of the day he will feel that he is wrong.

When he wants to pray he will feel it is no use. When he wants to speak a word in the meetings he will feel he cannot. When he wants to show Christian love he will feel that he has nothing to offer. Instead of considering how glorious and victorious the Son of God is, he will be consumed with what a failure he is as a Christian.

We have to take our eyes off of ourselves, both our successes and our failures and look away to Jesus. God's conviction is never to make you feel worthless and depressed. God's conviction is with love and a remedy for our failure - forgiveness and hope. Satan's accusation has no positive outcome. It is just to make you continuously feel low, worthless, powerless, and defeated.

One of the lessons I was taught was that when I confessed a sin to God I needed to do so once. Whenever the thought came "Maybe you didn't really confess. Maybe you better go back and confess AGAIN" - I knew this was now not the conviction of the Holy Spirit but the accusation of Satan.

The blood cleanses us from all sin. It is not time that cleanses us. It is the blood of Jesus. It is not our tears that cleanses us. It is the blood of Jesus. Our remorse and groveling on the floor, howling because of our sins does not cleanse us. It is the blood of Jesus that cleanses us.

And we must learn how to counter Satan's accusations (whether grounded in some fact or totally not grounded) with the blood of Christ.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Your post makes my point. Instead of understanding "The truth will set you free" from within the context of the teaching of Jesus, you choose to look elsewhere.

Jesus says that the truth will be made known to His true disciples, i.e., those who continue in HIS word (not Revelations, not Paul, not the Bible) and the truth will make them free from the sl ...[text shortened]... son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."[/b]

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John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."
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I have heard you elaborate on these verses before. I would like to give you a benefit of a doubt as to your final goal for the exposition of these verses.

If it is the same as the past, I see no constructive outcome for your elaboration of John 8. Rather eventually I have realized "This man has nothing to offer but accusation against Christians."

What is the goal of your exposition really? Does it encrease a seekers appetite for Jesus Christ ? Or does it tend to cool down one's desire to know Jesus ?

What is the real issue of your kind of exposition? Does it tend to draw men to Jesus or enfluence them to take ANOTHER way?

Apparently your exposition seems to concern itself with the TRUE teaching of Jesus. Some of us who know the Lord consider the smell test. Some of us consider the flavor, the eventual fragrance of your teaching.

Does it tend to make Jesus more loved to the truth seeker? Or does it tend to make him want to forget the whole Christian life ?

You're exposition is on the test. Where are you taking us with this ? Subtlety will be exposed because God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all.

I am afraid that your kind of eloquent exposition on John 8 has as its final goal to sever the seeking heart from Christ and direct it to some kind of humanistic philosophy.

You're teaching is on the test. Is this a wolf in sheep's clothing?

"The thief does not come except to steal and kill and destroy. I have come that they may have life and may have it abundantly." (John 10:10)

I will be considering if what you teach is intended to steal the grace of Christ from the believers or minister that grace of life.

Originally posted by jaywill
Freaky,

The major activity of Satan against Christians is to accuse them. He may be called a murder. He may be called a liar. He is an attacker. But this is not all. His chief work is to accuse.

[b]"The accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night" (Rev.12:10).

Day and night the accuser works ...[text shortened]... ons (whether grounded in some fact or totally not grounded) with the blood of Christ.[/b]

Seriously Jaywill, have you considered that what you consider to be the work of Satan is the encouragement of people to actually follow the teachings and commandments of Jesus?