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The OP consist only of the Apostle Paul's teaching to Christians about what their attitude should be towards government and its officials.
Caesar Nero, who latter had Paul beheaded, was the Emperor of Rome at the time these words were written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Romans 13:1 - 10:
"Let every person be subject to the authorities over him, for there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are ordained by God.
So then he who resists the authority opposes God's ordination, and those who oppose will receive judgment to themselves.
For the rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Do you want to have no fear of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from him.
For he is a servant of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, fear; he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is a servant of God, an avenger for wrath to him who practices evil.
Therefore it is necessary to be subject, not only because of wrath but also because of conscience. For because of this you also pay taxes; for they are God's officers, attending constantly to this very thing.
Render to all the things due: tax to whom tax is due, custom to whom custom is due, fear to whom fear is due, honor to whom honor is due.
Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves the other has fulfilled the law. For 'You shall not commit adultery,
you shall not murder,
you shall not steal,
you shall not covet,'
and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in the word, namely, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
Love does not work evil to his neighbor, therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."
15 Jun 15
Originally posted by sonshipI bet you think this applies to Hitler too. He certainly was a servant to God by treating the Jews so kindly. I suspect Obama is more of a servant to Allah. 😏
The OP consist only of the Apostle Paul's teaching to Christians about what their attitude should be towards government and its officials.
[b]Caesar Nero, who latter had Paul beheaded, was the Emperor of Rome at the time these words were written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Romans 13:1 - 10:
"Let every person b ...[text shortened]... does not work evil to his neighbor, therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."[/b]
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Originally posted by sonship
The OP consist only of the Apostle Paul's teaching to Christians about what their attitude should be towards government and its officials.
Caesar Nero, who latter had Paul beheaded, was the Emperor of Rome at the time these words were written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Romans 13:1 - 10:
"Let every per ...[text shortened]... does not work evil to his neighbor, therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."[/b]
15 Jun 15
Originally posted by sonshipWas Hitler a "terror" to the good work?
The OP consist only of the Apostle Paul's teaching to Christians about what their attitude should be towards government and its officials.
[b]Caesar Nero, who latter had Paul beheaded, was the Emperor of Rome at the time these words were written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Romans 13:1 - 10:
"Let every person b ...[text shortened]... does not work evil to his neighbor, therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."[/b]
What about abortion on demand?
What about government corruption that impoverishes the populace?
Is talking about these things resisting authority? Is it against the law?
If I am not breaking the law, then how am I resisting their authority?
Originally posted by RJHindsGodwin!! Godwin!!! Godwin!!!!!!
I bet you think this applies to Hitler too. He certainly was a servant to God by treating the Jews so kindly. I suspect Obama is more of a servant to Allah. 😏
They don't like talking about their little collectivist sociopath. No one and nothing should ever be compared to him because Hitler is in his own special bubble apart from humanity
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15 Jun 15
Originally posted by RJHinds
I bet you think this applies to Hitler too. He certainly was a servant to God by treating the Jews so kindly. I suspect Obama is more of a servant to Allah. 😏
Caesar Nero, who latter had Paul beheaded, was the Emperor of Rome at the time these words were written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit Christ's apostle wrote this during the reign of Nero.
Nero, as some of you may know, was not an advocate of the Religious Right as far as Christians were concerned. He burnt some in his gardens to keep them lighted at night. And he falsely blamed the fire in Rome on the Christians.
As bad as he was the Holy Spirit included these words in the inspired Scriptures. A Christians should regard the position of leadership as ordained by God. The very existence of human government should be regarded as God's ordination.
The brutish and coarse cannot taste in their conscience how ugly it is for a Christian to speak like a worldly person with insubordination and contempt about their nation's leader, even if that leader should be Nero.
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15 Jun 15
Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a Christian theologian in Germany during the Third Reich. He was deeply involved in a plot to have Adolf Hitler Assassinated.
If you are a Christian you may wonder WHY did God not cause his plot to be successful? Why did not God honor his theological incentive to have a man like Hitler killed?
I do not claim to have the answer.
It is not because I think God does not exist or that God did not care about the abject wickedness of Hitler. All I know is that for His own reasons a Christian theologian's plot to kill Hitler were foiled.
Originally posted by sonshipAm I involved in a plot to kill anyone?
Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a Christian theologian in Germany during the Third Reich. He was deeply involved in a plot to have Adolf Hitler Assassinated.
If you are a Christian you may wonder WHY did God not cause his plot to be successful? Why did not God honor his theological incentive to have a man like Hitler killed?
I do not claim to have ...[text shortened]... All I know is that for His own reasons a Christian theologian's plot to kill Hitler were foiled.
No.
As social activist Martin Niemoller aptly wrote.
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for Progressives.
And I just had to laugh.
Martin was later thrown in jail and someone came to visit. The visitor asked how he had gotten thrown into jail? Martin then turned to the man and said, the question should not be why I'm in jail, rather, the question is why are you not here with me behind bars.
I suppose you then think that Martin Luther King was wrong for defying the powers that be during his day. I don't.
15 Jun 15
Originally posted by sonship[b]Caesar Nero,who latter had Paul beheaded, was the Emperor of Rome at the time these words were written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit Christ's apostle wrote this during the reign of Nero.
Nero, as some of you may know, was not an advocate of the Religious Right as far as Ch ...[text shortened]... th insubordination and contempt about their nation's leader, even if that leader should be Nero.[/b]So let me ask you something. Was the American revolution "good"?
Obviously, they rose up against the crown, so I assume you would say that they were of the devil.
However, once in power, should they still be recognized as demonic or should they attain the same status as the crown before them?
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15 Jun 15
1 edit
Originally posted by whodeyWas Hitler a "terror" to the good work?
Was Hitler a "terror" to the good work?
What about abortion on demand?
What about government corruption that impoverishes the populace?
Is talking about these things resisting authority? Is it against the law?
If I am not breaking the law, then how am I resisting their authority?
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Adolf Hitler was a terror. No question about it.
So was Nero to the Christians who heard that he burnt believers alive.
There is no spirit of contempt in Paul's instruction. When unbelievers heard him preach they didn't say "He sounds like the rest of us who usually are sick to death of our leaders, gloating over their failures. Why doesn't this Christian sound like the rest of us disgruntled and disgusted citizens under this awful government?"
" Let every person be subject to the authorities over him, for there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are ordained by God"
When I came out of the 60s in the US to become a Christian in the early 70s you don't know how much I didn't like Romans 13 at that post Vietnam / Watergate era.
What about abortion on demand?
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What about the rather obvious fact that the Apostle Paul did not approve of Nero's life or decrees? How obedient to God the apostle was to be able to write to the church -
"For he is a servant of God to you for good."
Of course Paul was the kind of believer whose prayers touched the throne of God. And he taught that we should also be those whom God will hear and move the throne in response to godly petitions -
"I exhort therefore, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings be made on behalf of all men;
On behalf of kings and all who are in high position, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all godliness and gravity; This is good and acceptable in the sight of our Savior God,
Who desires all men to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth." ( 1 Timothy 2:1-4)
The prayer that Christians be able to live a quiet and tranquil life is for the spread of the Gospel. Under whatever form of government we are, we pray for quiet and tranquil life "in all godliness and gravity."
It is not a petition that we have good government so we can indulge our self interests in the flesh, care about our own skin basically like all the worldly people. The goal of praying for the government is that believers may live a life of "godliness and gravity".
The goal is not typical covetousness and envy but a godly life for the spread of the Gospel. God desires all men to be saved. But not only to just be saved "and to come to the full knowledge of the truth".
We should live Christ, express Christ, testify through our word and actions Christ.
What about government corruption that impoverishes the populace?
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In the US system we have voting and other procedures to help put in those with whom our conscience agrees.
Once they are there we should consider Paul's further word to Timothy -
" I desire therefore that men pray in every place, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and reasoning." (1 Timothy 2:8)
But if you are a Christian and behave as, let's say, the Westboro Baptist Church, you will show off a lot of wrath and reasoning only. Not only is there no spiritual power but you bring more disrepute to the Gospel.
For length's sake I stop here.
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15 Jun 15
1 edit
Originally posted by whodeyI suppose you then think that Martin Luther King was wrong for defying the powers that be during his day. I don't.
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In Exodus 3 we see that the Egyptian midwives disobeyed Pharoah's orders to have the Hebrew boys killed at birth. It says that they feared God. And it says God rewarded them for non-cooperation with the government plot of killing Hebrew boys.
And he [Pharoah] said, When you act as midwives for the Hebrew women ... if it is a son, then you shall put him to death; but it it is a daughter, then she shall live,
But the midwives feared God and did not do as the king of Egypt had commanded them but let the male children live.
So the king of Egypt called the midwives ... Why have you done this thing and let the male children live? (See Exod. 1:16-9)
As we see the midwives rationalized an excuse. This was clear civil disobedience under a fearful regard for God and conscience.
And God dealt well with the midwives .. And because the midwives feared God, He established households for them." (vs.20,21)
Though there is disobedience there is still respectful submission at least in attitude. The same could be said for the three Hebrew companions of Daniel who were cast into the fire. They would not worship Nebuchadnessar's idol. They had a respectful demeanor towards the Babylonian king.
They didn't spit at him or moon him. They could have behaved that way. But they respectfully insisted that they would obey God and not worship his image even if it cost them their lives.
Their attitude remained in submissive respect toward the worldly ruler though their conduct was in higher regard for God. And though they were civilly disobedient they still manifested Paul's exhortation -
Let every person be subject to the authorities over him, for there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are ordained by God.
Towards authority itself, they did not display contempt, disgust, gloating over their failures, or disdain. The same is very true of Daniel who continued to pray thrice a day after it had been decreed that no prayer to any other god be done for a period of time. For praying he ended up in the lion's den. God preserved him.
The God lover can for conscience sake adhere to the highest authority of God yet without manifesting the exact same contempt for those over him as most worldly unbelievers daily manifest.
15 Jun 15
Originally posted by sonshipSonship did you read my message?
[b] I suppose you then think that Martin Luther King was wrong for defying the powers that be during his day. I don't.
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In Exodus 3 we see that the Egyptian midwives disobeyed Pharoah's orders to have the Hebrew boys killed at birth. It says that they feared God. And it says God r ...[text shortened]... nifesting the exact same contempt for those over him as most worldly unbelievers daily manifest.[/b]
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15 Jun 15
Originally posted by twhiteheadI learned a few things about history before the Internet was invented.
And where did you get that from? Don't believe everything you read on the internet!
Before the Internet there were and still are history books.
If you want to start a thread on some revisionism of Roman history and how Nero is falsely blamed by Christians, go ahead and open up a new thread on that subject.