Obama: Servant of God

Originally posted by whodey
So let me ask you something. Was the American revolution "good"?

Obviously, they rose up against the crown, so I assume you would say that they were of the devil.

However, once in power, should they still be recognized as demonic or should they attain the same status as the crown before them?

Bump for Sonship

Why not answer this question?

Originally posted by twhitehead
And where did you get that from? Don't believe everything you read on the internet!

This question and comment is kind of an insult to my education and intelligence.

It is not that I claim doctorate level education. But the insinuation that all I know is what I can bring up on Yahoo or Google is kind of an insult to my over 60 years of reasonable familiarity with history.

No, I don't believe everything I read on the Internet twhitehead.
I don't necessarily believe completely without realization of mistakes or bias, everything I read in history books.

How about I turn it around and suggest that YOU should not believe everything YOU read on the Internet?

Originally posted by whodey
Bump for Sonship

Why not answer this question?

Was the American Revolution good or was it evil ?
According to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which side does the American Revolution come up on?

I will try to answer your question, but not before I emphasize that this thread is about Christians expressing divine life. This is a matter of the tree of life.

Paul is describing what living Christ should look like. Paul is teaching how Christ will come out of us in our attitudes and actions if we live Christ - ie. if in Christ we "reign in life".

A sign of being defeated rather than reigning in life with Christ, is the clamor, grumbling, mocking, contemptuous expressions toward human government that fallen worldly people often display.

The 13th chapter of Paul's epistle to the Christians in the capital city of Rome teaches us HOW living Jesus Christ will be manifested in our attitude toward human governments.

" ... much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ." (Rom. 5:17)

What does it look like to the world around us to be reigning in the divine life through Jesus Christ ? In relation to the authority on the job, in the family, with our government - what does reigning in life through Christ look like.

What does being defeated from living in Christ look like?
Paul wants us to be reigning in life rather than being defeated by a shortage of the enjoyment of God's grace.

God wants us to be "saved in His life" (Rom. 5:10) .

Concerning the government we Christians want to be enjoying grace, reigning in Christ as life, and being saved in the realm of His life. Romans 13 helps is to see how this victorious living by Christ should manifest itself in matters of politics.

We need that instruction. How can I be "saved in His life" in a situation where I disagree with the government? How can I "reign in life" in that situation?

Leaders come and go.
Forms of government come and go.
Even nations rise and fall as do empires.

Through them all in their varied forms the followers of Jesus Christ should display a respect for human government and its officers.

Now in the next post I write to you I will specifically talk about what is closest to Christians in the American situation. But I think the same think probably applies to political situations or revolutions elsewhere also.

Originally posted by sonship
Was the American Revolution good or was it evil ?
According to [b]the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which side does the American Revolution come up on?

I will try to answer your question, but not before I emphasize that this thread is about Christians expressing divine life. This is a matter of the tree of life.

Paul is descr ...[text shortened]... t I think the same think probably applies to political situations or revolutions elsewhere also.[/b]

So you would say that the uprising came from non-Christians, or at least, defeated Christians?

Originally posted by whodey
Bump for Sonship

Why not answer this question?

Was the American Revolution good or was it bad?

I am going to say the more something advances the eternal plan of God the more real good it is. And IMO the American Revolution had this "good" aspect to it.

It provided a place like a "melting pot" of mixture of peoples as never before. And in this mixed environment there was an opportunity for the one new man of the church to be built and manifested in a way more so than in other continents.

Under God's providence and sovereignty in which "all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose" oneness in Christ has an unusual opportunity to be built up in this country of America in a particular way.

The opportunity for oneness IN CHRIST is particularly present in America because of the background history of the country.

That is the positive side of the outcome of the American Revolution. The church can be built here if Christians would cooperate in an exemplary way because of the freedom and diversity the country's people.

In that sense, IMO, the American Revolution was good - in terms of "good" for God's eternal purpose of the church. Fertile ground is in the US for her to be built up in divine life in Christ.

The bad aspect of the American Revolution is that on the other hand the "freedom" offers unparallelled opportunity for the fallen flesh to indulge and reign for a thorough manifestation of greed, licentiousness, immorality and exploitation.

Paul wrote of freedom -

"For you were called to freedom, brothers; only do not turn this freedom into an opportunity for the flesh but through love serve one another." (Gal. 5:13)

Freedom than can be an opportunity for the fallen decadent nature of sinful man. Or freedom can be an opportunity to live for God and unto God for the fulfillment of His eternal purpose.

Whether the American Revolution was good or bad, in the final analysis, depends on our own participation in God's will and plan in Christ's coming.

Christ is "the desire of the nations". I want to be about hastening His kingdom and return. If the American Revolution is good for that, than it is good. And to that end I think we American Christians should live and pray.

If I thought prayer was only a ritual I wouldn't care that much. But I think if our lives are in harmony with the Holy Spirit our prayers can be powerful. And we should pray above all that God further His interests on the earth.

I am not finished speaking to this question.

Originally posted by sonship
This question and comment is kind of an insult to my education and intelligence.

And that is exactly what it was meant to be. You should know better than to quote factoids like that without double checking them.

I note that you have not stated where you got it from, nor admitted that it is false. Possibly worse than spreading falsehoods, is refusing to admit when you get something wrong.

Originally posted by sonship
Was the American Revolution good or was it bad?

I am going to say the more something advances the eternal plan of God the more real good it is. And IMO the American Revolution had this "good" aspect to it.

It provided a place like a "melting pot" of mixture of peoples as never before. And in this mixed environment there was an opportunity for the [b ...[text shortened]... l that God further His interests on the earth.

I am not finished speaking to this question.

In other words, the public activism and criticism that led to an armed uprising is "fuzzy" in terms of being good or bad?

I believe we should be "subject" to the powers that be because as the Bible says they are ordained of God, but when the "powers that be" would cause one to break the law of God, then I don't believe we are subject to that.

It makes no sense to be subject to an authority that forces one to disobey God. Just as in Hitler's day, when the Nazis forced the Jews into gas chambers, there were those in Germany that did not subject themselves to that authority, and neither should we subject ourselves to a government that undermines freedom, the constitution and the liberties afforded the American citizen as laid out in the bill of rights. Reveal Hidden Content

I for one will not subject myself to a corrupt authority. That's my right as an American. I don't believe I'm in violation of the command of God to be subject to any authority in those circumstances.

A man's gotta draw the line somewhere. Even a Christian man. We're not doormats for corrupt governments or people to walk on!

George Washington was a Christian, was he not? Is there any doubt he ordered men into battle to kill the enemies of the rights of men to live free?

Originally posted by whodey

So you would say that the uprising came from non-Christians, or at least, defeated Christians?

I expect that at "the judgment seat of Christ" when we Christians will be examined by Jesus as to the quality of our walk with Christ, some pro-revolutionaries will be rewarded and some will suffer loss. And some loyalists will be rewarded and some will be suffer loss.


Paul's exhortation in Romans 13 It is not that Christians then were monolithic in political opinions.

How could we expect the Christian church to be this way when he writes Body -

" .. put on the new man, which is being renewed unto full knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,

Where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free man, but Christ is all and in all." (Colossians 3:10,11)

When is Jesus going to get this kind of church life?
If it is not in this age then when?
This is not for heaven. This is not for some other age.
This is for the present age.

Some believers have to get the vision of the oneness in Christ and live in it.

You don't think Greeks, Jews, barbarians, Scythians, slaves, free men had different political leanings? Paul said to "put on the new man" which means let God transform you into the image of Christ.

That is what I want to live for.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] So you would say that the uprising came from non-Christians, or at least, defeated Christians?

I expect that at "the judgment seat of Christ" when we Christians will be examined by Jesus as to the quality of our walk with Christ, some pro-revolutionaries will be rewarded and some will suffer loss. And some loyalists will be rewarded and s ...[text shortened]... ich means let God transform you into the image of Christ.

That is what I want to live for.[/b]

I see, so we should not judge others is what you are saying?

Does that include judging me or just those mentioned?

Originally posted by twhitehead
And that is exactly what it was meant to be. You should know better than to quote factoids like that without double checking them.

I note that you have not stated where you got it from, nor admitted that it is false. Possibly worse than spreading falsehoods, is refusing to admit when you get something wrong.

Oh, we're back to me refusing to admit that you are right.
Start a thread on misconceptions about Nero.

Originally posted by whodey
I see, so we should not judge others is what you are saying?

Does that include judging me or just those mentioned?

Did I mention you?
Did I write your name?

Romans 13 is an important chapter for Christians.
Do you disagree ?

Originally posted by sonship
Oh, we're back to me refusing to admit that you are right.

Yes. That fact that you can't admit that you are wrong even when it is blatantly obvious that you are is interesting, funny and sad all at the same time.

Originally posted by josephw
I believe we should be "subject" to the powers that be because as the Bible says they are ordained of God, but when the "powers that be" would cause one to break the law of God, then I don't believe we are subject to that.

It makes no sense to be subject to an authority that forces one to disobey God. Just as in Hitler's day, when the Nazis forced the Jew ...[text shortened]... here any doubt he ordered men into battle to kill the enemies of the rights of men to live free?

I believe we should be "subject" to the powers that be because as the Bible says they are ordained of God, but when the "powers that be" would cause one to break the law of God, then I don't believe we are subject to that.
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I agree. And I included Paul's word in chapter 13 about fulfilling the law of God in verses 8 through 10. IE about Love fulfilling the law of God.


It makes no sense to be subject to an authority that forces one to disobey God. Just as in Hitler's day, when the Nazis forced the Jews into gas chambers, there were those in Germany that did not subject themselves to that authority, and neither should we subject ourselves to a government that undermines freedom,
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This is true that as the Egyptian midwives they did not carry out the king's orders to kill Hebrew boys.

They also must have lied to those searching their homes for hiding Jews. The commandment of God said you shall not bear false witness. But many people do not pay attention to the next words "against your neighbor".

" You shall not testify with false testimony AGAINST YOUR NEIGHBOR" (Exodus 20:16)[/b]

This I think we have to view as bearing false witness to injure someone. That is to lie to DAMAGE someone else. I don't think it meant that conscientious Germans were to admit that Jews were hiding in their houses.

There is room in living Christ for both Romans 13 and the non-compliant yet respectful civil disobedience of say, Daniel and the three Hebrew boys in Babylon.

Exodus 22:28

Don't speak evil of me or of the ruler of your people.

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Looks like the Holy Spirit had some trouble making up his mind.