Obama: Servant of God

Originally posted by josephw
[b]Thanks sonship. As good an explanation of the passage as I've ever heard.

A question. The "kingdom", what part does the church play in it's administration and establishment? If the church is bound for heaven, and the kingdom is on earth, what is the church's relationship to it?
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The concept that the church is bound for heaven or has heaven as her eternal dwelling place is a error.

The wife who has made herself ready (the overcomers of the church) accompany Christ the King of kings down to the earth.

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sits on it called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war ... And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean." (see Rev. 19:11-14)

Please notice that the armor which clothes the army is identical to the wedding garment of the marraige feast in the previous verse 8.

" Let us rejoice and exult, and let us give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.

And it was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses [or righteous deeds] of the saints.

And he said to me, Write, Blessed are they who are called to the marriage dinner of the Lamb. And he said to me, These are the true words of God." (Rev. 19:7-9)

The bridal garment is also the fighting armor - "fine linen, bright and clean" (v.8); "fine linen, white and clean" (v.14) .

The overcomers of the church come down to reign on earth in the kingdom. This is just one sample of such a truth.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] A question. The "kingdom", what part does the church play in it's administration and establishment? If the church is bound for heaven, and the kingdom is on earth, what is the church's relationship to it?
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The concept that the church is bound for heaven or has ...[text shortened]... the church come down to reign on earth in the kingdom. This is just one sample of such a truth.[/b]

Will you explain verses four and six of capture 20. Is the "rapture" of the church and the first resurrection of verse four related? Are there two separate people groups? i.e., the bride and those of the first resurrection?

Do you believe that the church is "caught up" before the seven year tribulation period?

I do appreciate brevity sonship. 🙂

Originally posted by josephw

Will you explain verses four and six of capture 20. Is the "rapture" of the church and the first resurrection of verse four related? Are there two separate people groups? i.e., the bride and those of the first resurrection?

Do you believe that the church is "caught up" before the seven year tribulation period?

I do appreciate brevity sonship.

If I am too brief it may leave you with some puzzling matters.
If you understand this, I will give you as concise a reply as I can.

The rapture of the church and the first resurrection are related.

The word "first" in "first resurrection" can also be read "best resurrection". It is not only the resurrection of life (John 5:29; 1 Cor. 15:23b; 1 Thess. 4:16) , but also a resurrection of reward (Luke 14:14). It is the out resurrection, or the outstanding resurrection which the Apostle Paul sought in Phil. 3:11.

Regardless of when a saint is resurrected or raptured, he or she will be either rewarded or suffer loss (1 Cor. 3:11-15).

All the reigning ones in Revelation 20:6 should be saints REWARDED . Reward in the New Testament means in addition to the GIFT of eternal life.

Do you believe that the church is "caught up" before the seven year tribulation period?

The great tribulation is three and one half years in length not seven.

A minority of saints will be raptured before the start of the great tribulation of three and one half years. The majority of saints will pass through the three and one half years of the great tribulation and be raptured at its end.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] Will you explain verses four and six of capture 20. Is the "rapture" of the church and the first resurrection of verse four related? Are there two separate people groups? i.e., the bride and those of the first resurrection?

Do you believe that the church is "caught up" before the seven year tribulation period?

I do appreciate brevity sonship. [ ...[text shortened]... l pass through the three and one half years of the great tribulation and be raptured at its end.

Is that the 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses?

Back to the OP.

The story of Noah's three sons is instructive about the danger to Christians of having the wrong attitude about the failure of leadership.

Go read Genesis 9:20-27.

When a leader, a parent, a boss, a government authority fails, the spiritual person should not gloat. It is time for the Christian to cover his eyes in sadness. This is not to accept as OK the sins of leadership. That is not the point at all.

The point of the story of Noah's exposed nakedness and the effect on his three sons plus Canaan, is that God's people should never gloat with some kind of perverse glee when a leader is exposed.

If you are a Christian on the job and the worldly people around you are gossiping about the boss, you should feel some restraint in your heart to particpate.

Worldly people may be happy to see the nakedness of a leader showing his shame. The Christian, while not agreeing with the failure, should want to "walk in backwards and cover " the shame.

Respect for the position is absolute.
Obedience to command may be relative but is always accompanied with respect.

Gloating, gossiping, bragging, and rejoicing in the failure of leadership is spiritually and even morally ugly. It brings in a kind of curse.

The Bible warns that the failure of leadership is a TEST to the heart of God's people. And Romans 13 is an inoculation to Christians against the temptation of manifesting a spirit of rebellion.

The story of the failure of the governing head - (Genesis 9:20-27)

"And Noah began to be a husbandman, and planted a vineyard: and he drank of the wine and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. And Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went in backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his youngest son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

And he said, Blessed be Jehovah, to God of Shem; And let Canaan be his servant, God enlarge Japheth and let him dwell in the tents of Shem; and let Canaan be his servant."

Maybe many have taken this story of things after the flood of Noah as just another miscellaneous matter. Actually, it is significant of principles related to authority and human government.

Before this time the world was an anarchy in the pure sense of the word. There was no human government per se. God let there be a span of time where everyone just went by their conscience. It was a true no government "libertarian" society. The final result was not good.

After this God instituted human government. God knew human government would not be perfect. Human authorities will sometimes be drunken, not sober, fail, be exposed as naked and shameful.

The failure of the leader Noah became a test to the sons of Noah. How they reacted to the failure of leadership became a test to them. It could bring in cursing or blessing. The leader represents authority. And authority itself, though likely to be abused, is something sacred and established by God.

If you have rebellion in your heart the failure of a leader sometimes can cause it to be manifested. Two sons reacted to the naked shame of their father by walking in backwards with a covering and covering their father.

Apparently, ether Ham or his son Canaan or maybe both, took a different attitude. Someone may have gossiped or published the misfortune with a rebellious attitude of gloating or jesting at the moment.

Romans 13 is a preemptive inoculation by God training Christians to have a proper regard for governing authorities. It is not a treatise on everything the government does is right.

But it is a warning for the Christian church not to repeat the rebellion of Ham.

Originally posted by sonship
Back to the OP.

The story of Noah's three sons is instructive about the danger to Christians of having the wrong attitude about the failure of leadership.

Go read [b]Genesis 9:20-27.

When a leader, a parent, a boss, a government authority fails, the spiritual person should not gloat. It is time for the Christian to cover his eyes in sadness. ...[text shortened]... 13 is an inoculation to Christians against the temptation of manifesting a spirit of rebellion.[/b]

You certainly have a weird way of interpreting some scripture. Did you get that from your cult leader Witness Lee?

The significance of the placement of the story of Noah's failure is that this is a new age. The new age is one in which God has instituted human government upon earth. This is indicated by Genesis 8:6 God's instructions to mankind after the flood.

Whoever sheds man's blood By man shall his blood be shed, For in the image of God He made man.

If we compare this word to God's command that no one was to take vengence upon Cain for the murder of Abel, we can see the change.

"And Cain said to Jehovah, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

Now you have driven me out this day from the face of the ground, and from Your face I will be hidden; and I will be a fugative and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.

And Jehovah said to him, Therefore whoever kills Cain, vengence will be taken on him sevenfold. And Jehovah put a mark on Cain, so that anyone who found him would not strike him." (Gen. 4:13-15)

Before the Flood - no capital punishment allowed.
After the Flood - capital punishment instituted.

Before the Flood - all people live only under the rule of their conscience.

After the degradation and anarchy and flood, those who heed the conscience should govern those who do not listen to conscience.

Now that human government is instituted on earth, the first issue that God discloses to us is the failure of human government and how God's people should deal with it.

This is the basic revelation of the incident of Noah's drunkeness and shameful nakedness. How his sons dealt with the failure of deputy authority.

Originally posted by sonship
The significance of the placement of the story of Noah's failure is that this is a new age. The new age is one in which God has instituted human government upon earth. This is indicated by [b]Genesis 8:6 God's instructions to mankind after the flood.

[quote] Whoever sheds man's blood By man shall his blood be shed, For in the image of God He made ...[text shortened]... ah's drunkeness and shameful nakedness. How his sons dealt with the failure of deputy authority.

Perhaps you could say Barack Obama is a servant of God in much the same way as Judas was in betraying our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. However, you seem to be implying the same thing as Jamie Foxx when he said the following:

YouTube

Noah was a man through whose righteousness God was able to save the family. He surely was appointed by God to be the first leader of that new age. The family was under his authority as well as the new world.

But when Noah became drunk he uncovered himself in his tent. It appears that Ham saw his nakedness and told his two brothers outside. Noah's conduct was wrong.

The strong implication of the sparse story is that Ham failed to see the dignity of authority. The flesh delights in seeing defect in authority. Parents and leaders do fail. Fallen fleshy man delights for failure to be seen in authority.

When improper conduct is seen or when a leader throws off restraint the God fearing should will have a sense of shame and sorrow. Paul said love does not rejoice in evil -

" ... It [love] does not rejoice because of unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth" (1 Cor. 13:5)

This is not an easy matter for the Christian to learn. And it requires another life - the life of Christ welling up from within. The rebellious spirit that delights in the exposure of the failure of leadership must be swallowed up the nature of Jesus Christ the emblem of perfect submission.

God covered the nakedness of Adam and Eve. And God moved Japheth and Shem, Ham's brothers, to cover the shame of their exposed father.

The evil age we live in today is to exploit scandal, publish shame, catch embarrassing failure and rejoice over it. If a Christian acts this way around the office, exposing the boss with delight the worldly people with think to themselves -

"It is good to see that this Christian is just as corrupt as the rest of us."

I have had this experience. Only it was not thought, it was said to me. And I never forgot it or how much I needed Christ in this area. It doesn't matter who the leader is.

Originally posted by sonship
Noah was a man through whose righteousness God was able to save the family. He surely was appointed by God to be the first leader of that new age. The family was under his authority as well as the new world.

But when Noah became drunk he uncovered himself in his tent. It appears that Ham saw his nakedness and told his two brothers outside. Noah's conduct ...[text shortened]... I never forgot it or how much I needed Christ in this area. It doesn't matter who the leader is.

I hope you are not trying to equate Barack Obama with Noah. I don't see any resemblance at all. And I am certainly not rejoicing over Obama failures. I never expected him to live up to the honor Jamie Foxx was bestowing on him by calling him Lord and savior. But he fell way below what I would expect from just a mediocre President. The only thing I see he is really good at is political speaking and lying.

It is seen with Noah and his sons that the failure of leadership can be a test to God's people. Latter we see a similar lessons in Moses with Mariam and Aaron his siblings. We see it also with David and the awful King Saul.

David had an opportunity to even assassinate Saul for hunting him in order to murder him. Saul was obsessed with jealousy concerning David whom God had chosen once Saul had been rejected.

Yet, it smote David's conscience even to cut a little piece of Saul's clothing off. David wanted to demonstrate to Saul that it was in his power to kill him when Saul came into a dark cave to find the hiding David.

David continually referred to the rejected King Saul as the Lord's anointed. And his conscience bothered him even to slice a little piece of his clothing off with a knife.

The striking thing about a few of these stories is how faithful God was to His own purposes. The insubordination of man was useless. The rebellious attitude of man even when so seemingly legitimate was useless to God.

James says man's wrath does not work God's righteousness -

" For the wrath of man does not accomplish the righteousness of God ." (James 1:19)

I learned this lesson just this week. There was heavy rain in town and the police blocked off a road. I didn't realize that they intended no one to go around the blocking. I got too close. The policeman somewhat spoke his annoyance and scolded me.

Immediately I felt indignation. Why was he not out in directing the traffic, I reasoned. Why was he blaming me for not realizing I was suppose to turn around.

The Wonderful Lord Jesus checked my conscience. "You have been preaching about respect for officers of the civil government. Look now at your attitude towards this policeman."

Praise the Lord Jesus! Once again I saw that to be a Christian requires Christ Himself living in us. We need another life to live out Romans 13. Praise the Lord only Christ in us is absolute for the will of the Father.

How deeply the Christian needs Christ moment by moment.


A number of times who is obedient and who is rebellious among God's people is exposed by the reaction to leadership faults.

One way a Christian can grow spiritually in relation to the government, is to remind God in your prayers that that person is God's servant.

IE. "Lord, You servant the president of this country, needs your mercy. He is beholden to all kinds of special interests and returned favors to people. Lord touch the conscience Your servant to do the right thing. Cause him to be surrounded by wise and humbled helpers. Cause them to all to depend on You in prayers along with their gifts of wisdom and knowledge.

Lord You say you direct the heart of the king with Your hands. Remember now O Lord how you said:

"The kings heart is like streams of water in the hand of Jehovah; He turns it wherever He wishes" in Proverbs 21:1

Lord, turn the heart of Your servant in the best way for Your will to be accomplished on the earth. Thankyou Lord. Amen. "

This is an effective way to have God change things and more so to change the praying Christian to be built up into His eternal living dwelling place, the church.

"I exhort therefore, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings be made on behalf of all men;

On behalf of kings and all who are in high position, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all godliness and gravity,

This is good and acceptable in the sight of our Savior God, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:1-4)