1. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    29 May '14 20:47
    One Question

    God's perfect plan provides the grace gift [free] of eternal life for all who choose to claim it with an uncoerced decision to believe [place their confidence] in Christ for their salvation. What are the most compelling reasons to reject this gift?
  2. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    29 May '14 20:49
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    [b]One Question

    God's perfect plan provides the grace gift [free] of eternal life for all who choose to claim it with an uncoerced decision to believe [place their confidence] in Christ for their salvation. What are the most compelling reasons to reject this gift?[/b]
    it's a false assumption
  3. SubscriberFMF
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    29 May '14 22:06
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    [b]One Question

    God's perfect plan provides the grace gift [free] of eternal life for all who choose to claim it with an uncoerced decision to believe [place their confidence] in Christ for their salvation. What are the most compelling reasons to reject this gift?[/b]
    Another reason would be that there is no reason to think that this "gift" you talk about is real and therefore one cannot choose to believe it's real.
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    29 May '14 22:18
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    One Question

    God's perfect plan provides the grace gift [free] of eternal life for all who choose to claim it with an uncoerced decision to believe [place their confidence] in Christ for their salvation. What are the most compelling reasons to reject this gift?
    God's perfect plan provides the grace gift ....


    You assume that a god exists, that that god has a plan, that this plan is perfect,
    and that this plan includes a gift. Unless you can prove all those assumptions to
    be true then nothing that follows matters.

    God's perfect plan provides the grace gift [free] ...


    Personally I think 'free' is implicit in the word 'gift' ... as it's not a gift if you
    have to earn it/pay for it... It would then be a reward, and not a gift.

    As your religion emphatically requires you to earn this 'gift' it is neither
    free, nor a gift, it's a reward.

    ... of eternal life ...


    Continuing on we have another assumption in need of proving, the nature of the
    reward being offered by the hypothesised god.

    ... for all who choose to claim it with an uncoerced decision to believe [place their
    confidence] in Christ for their salvation.


    Demonstrating my point nicely, it's not a gift given freely. It's a 'reward' for 'good' behaviour.

    Also the decision isn't, and cannot be, uncoerced if you reward one choice and punish [or simply
    fail to reward] the other/s.

    And I will further note that I find it insulting to suggest I [or people generally] need 'saving'.

    What are the most compelling reasons to reject this gift?


    OK, IF for the purposes of this discussion we assume that a god does exist, that this god
    has a perfect plan, that this plan includes a 'reward' of eternal life for compliance with gods
    wishes demonstrated by worship [and any other act's or beliefs that are required]...

    Then we might well still 'reject' this offer if we are unconvinced that an eternity of anything
    is desirable, or even survivable without going insane.
    We might 'reject' the offer if we find god to be morally objectionable and thus do not wish to
    spend any time with god, let alone an eternity.
    We might actually think the alternative is better, whatever the alternatives are.

    There may be other good reasons, but these will do for now.


    However, if we are more reasonable and do not grant you all your assumptions...

    There is no compelling [or even weak] reason to suppose that your god actually exists, that
    there is an afterlife of any kind, that an opportunity exists to go to the afterlife we have no
    reason to suppose exists, or what the criteria would be to gain this opportunity to enter this
    afterlife. There is reason to suspect that Christ wasn't even a historical figure, and no
    reason to believe that even if he did exist that he was the son of god.
    There are also plenty of reasons to suppose that if your god did exist that that god would not
    be worthy of worship, would not make good company, and should be avoided at all costs.

    And if none of that were true, I still come back to this.

    I can conceive of no circumstance in which I would want an eternity of existence.
    Extended, yes. But eternal, no. Even if I were to live to 4 and 20 times the present age of the
    universe... that would still be less than the blink of an eye when compared to eternity.
  5. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    29 May '14 22:25
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    [b]One Question

    [/b]
    If only ....
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    29 May '14 22:33
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    God's perfect plan provides the grace gift ....


    You assume that a god exists, that that god has a plan, that this plan is perfect,
    and that this plan includes a gift. Unless you can prove all those assumptions to
    be true then nothing that follows matters.

    [quote]God's perfect plan provides the grace gift [b][free]
    ... [/quot ...[text shortened]... f the
    universe... that would still be less than the blink of an eye when compared to eternity.[/b]
    What he said.
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    29 May '14 23:01
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    [b]One Question

    God's perfect plan provides the grace gift [free] of eternal life for all who choose to claim it with an uncoerced decision to believe [place their confidence] in Christ for their salvation. What are the most compelling reasons to reject this gift?[/b]
    When we married, one of our wealthy friends wanted to give us $10,000 to be used as a down payment on a new car. True story. Our first thought was, we didn't particularly want or need a new car, we have better uses for the balance we'd have to pay, and we want to be deciding such things. And we thought the gift would distort our relationship in ways we couldn't predict. So we explained this and declined, and she understood.

    This question brought that incident to mind, for whatever reason. Can you see why?
  8. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    29 May '14 23:29
    Originally posted by JS357
    When we married, one of our wealthy friends wanted to give us $10,000 to be used as a down payment on a new car. True story. Our first thought was, we didn't particularly want or need a new car, we have better uses for the balance we'd have to pay, and we want to be deciding such things. And we thought the gift would distort our relationship in ways we couldn' ...[text shortened]... nderstood.

    This question brought that incident to mind, for whatever reason. Can you see why?
    May have made the two of you beholden; placed a romantic relationship on a materialistic basis; diminished your selfhood?
  9. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    29 May '14 23:31
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    it's a false assumption
    God; His plan; the grace gift; eternal life; eternity; other?
  10. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    29 May '14 23:36
    Originally posted by FMF
    Another reason would be that there is no reason to think that this "gift" you talk about is real and therefore one cannot choose to believe it's real.
    On the basis of empiricism; rationalism; an acquired predisposition; other?
  11. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    29 May '14 23:39
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    God's perfect plan provides the grace gift ....


    You assume that a god exists, that that god has a plan, that this plan is perfect,
    and that this plan includes a gift. Unless you can prove all those assumptions to
    be true then nothing that follows matters.

    [quote]God's perfect plan provides the grace gift [b][free]
    ... [/quot ...[text shortened]... f the
    universe... that would still be less than the blink of an eye when compared to eternity.[/b]
    "... we are unconvinced that an eternity of anything is desirable, or even survivable without going insane." googlefudge

    Viability and/or desirability of God's grace gift?
  12. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    29 May '14 23:40
    Originally posted by Penguin
    What he said.
    Anything further?
  13. SubscriberFMF
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    29 May '14 23:45
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    On the basis of empiricism; rationalism; an acquired predisposition; other?
    There is no empirical evidence that this "gift" you often talk about exists and no one has ever presented me with a rational argument that would now lead me to share your hope or belief that it exists. I'm not entirely sure what kind of thing you are referring to exactly with the term "acquired predisposition", but I do not find the notion of immortality particular appealing ~ I am at peace with the facts of life and the finite nature of the human condition.
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    29 May '14 23:48
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    "... we are unconvinced that an eternity of anything is desirable, or even survivable without going insane." googlefudge

    Viability and/or desirability of God's grace gift?
    I can conceive of no circumstance in which I would want an eternity of existence.
    Extended, yes. But eternal, no. Even if I were to live to 4 and 20 times the present age of the
    universe... that would still be less than the blink of an eye when compared to eternity.


    Asked and answered.
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    30 May '14 00:34
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    May have made the two of you beholden; placed a romantic relationship on a materialistic basis; diminished your selfhood?
    The first of those, with a bit of the others.

    Also,

    It was something we didn't particularly want or need.

    We also didn't want our relationship tainted by the possibility of turning into "What's in this for me."

    A simple expression of her love would do, from her and everyone there. (She did this, by composing and singing a song at our wedding.)

    These three items factor into the thread subject: It's a nice well-intended gesture, but I don't need or want eternal life; I don't want the relationship to have any chance to become one of reward/punishment-based motivations on my part, and there being love, is enough.

    I'm suspicious that I lack belief in deity but God loves me anyway.🙂
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