One Question

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Sin - The violation of God's will.

How can an atheist subscribe to that concept?

Out of all the theists here, I am probably most likely to recognize your objection to the concept. But calling it "Christian terminology" doesn't do your argument any favors. That's all I'm saying.

Originally posted by KellyJay
You can sin against yourself too, if you condemn any action that
someone else does, yet you do it yourself, you've sinned by your
own condemnation.
Kelly

I don't really understand how that relates to my question.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Out of all the theists here, I am probably most likely to recognize your objection to the concept. But calling it "Christian terminology" doesn't do your argument any favors.

Okay I get what you're saying. But in the context of the debate, with a Christian, it will do.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I can imagine Peter Griffin standing before God at Judgement saying, "Holy crap! The Christians were right after all! Who knew?"

Or you standing before Allah and saying "Wow! So the Muslims were right after all.'

At which point I expect you to accept your eternal damnation with good grace and say 'Fair enough. I was told about the one true religion and rejected it because my heart was so sinful.'

Originally posted by Rajk999
Utter foolishness.

Christ described absolutely no sceanrio like that. Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our salvation and he was very clear and precise in his description of what the final analysis would entail.

Matt 25 contains the final analysis. Please read it without the usual twisting and manipulating and you will understand who gets what and why.

Summertime's here again.
Better mend the screens.

Originally posted by Rank outsider

but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.

Now, I agree, this could be read as a parental warning, or a threat. So which is it?

Well, you often read people who, when caught out making a sexist/racist remark, say 'it is office banter' or so ...[text shortened]... reason, to all women throughout the ages.

Sounds like someone making good on a threat to me.

Now, I agree, this could be read as a parental warning, or a threat. So which is it?
The dual death began that day: they died spiritually and physical death was now a reality.
Sounds like a warning.

Notice the 'make'. Not, if you do this, be warned that it will happen to have the consequence that you will have pain in childbirth. I am choosing to do this as a punishment. A punishment that I will apply, for some unfathomable reason, to all women throughout the ages.
Not sure if your use of punishment is correct.
Equally unsure if the reason is as unfathomable as you make it out to be.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Summertime's here again.
Better mend the screens.

Hope you have an asbestos suit ..🙂

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
(Matthew 25:41-46 KJV)

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Summertime's here again.
Better mend the screens.

In a previous life he was Sister Mary Rajk, standing over you with her ruler and yelling, "Rules are rules, young man! How dare you risk the wrath of God?"

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Not sure if your use of punishment is correct.
Equally unsure if the reason is as unfathomable as you make it out to be.

How is someone choosing to inflict physical pain on someone as a result of their disobedience not a punishment?

As to the other matter, I don't happen to believe that anyone should be punished for a 'crime' they didn't commit. That, to me, is unfathomable.

Originally posted by Proper Knob

I'm not a Christian, so why would I subscribe to the Christian concept of sin and use Christian terminology? If you attacked me and stole my wallet, you're right, I wouldn't be happy but I wouldn't call it a 'sin' anymore than I would call it a transgression of Sharia or Hindu Law.

You would know that it was wrong.

Now it is really wrong or wrongness is just an illusion and it wasn't.

But if it really was really wrong, who is keeping track in an overall ultimate sense of the rightness and wrongness of everyone's actions ?

I admit that there are many many opinions about who or what is keeping track of all the right or wrong doings. We may prefer that it be Miss Manners or "The Force" Star Wars style. We may prefer that it be Barney the Dinosaur or Pollyanna or Dr Spock the grand permissivist.

We may prefer that the ultimate measurer of our doings whether right or wrong be our own individual selves alone. Maybe we'd like to assign the task to Charles Darwin. Perhaps we'd prefer that NO ONE and NO THING be keeping oversight over this matter. But that is just our preferences.

I think we better consider the One who came along and appeared to be the MOST right one about human life. We have to put Jesus Christ on the short list. And all the more so because in addition to demonstrating arguably the most upright rightness of human living, He forewarned that there would be judgment in which He will arbitrate at history's end.

"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom He wills.

For neither does the Father judge anyone, but has given all judgment to the Son, in order that all may honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him." (John 5:21-23)

I have to consider on my short list this Jesus Christ. It says that God has set His seal to Him being the Judge of mankind by raising Him from the dead.

" Therefore, having overlooked the times of ignorance, God now charges all men everywhere to repent.

Because He has set a day in which He is to judge the world in righteousness by the man whom He has designated, having furnished proof to all by raising Him from the dead. " (Acts 17:30,31)

Christ is that Savior and also the designated Man appointed to be the One through whom God will judge the world.

The same Man who is the Justifier is also the Judge. The same Man who is the Lord and Savior is also the Judge of the living and the dead.

So we should consider well. And we should heed His offer that believing into Him as a living realm we may pass from judgment to life eternal.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment but has passed out of death into life.

Truly, truly, I say to you, An hour is coming and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live." (John 5:24,25)

Today is the day to hear the voice of the Son of God in our innermost conscience, and believe in Him and live. This is to be born again and live by Christ.

But also this same Man will call out of the graves and tombs the dead to be judged.

"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all in the tombs will hear His voice and will come forth: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

I can do nothing from Myself; as I hear, I judge, and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will but the will of Him who sent Me." (vs.28-30)

Consider well your list of candidates of ones taught as final deciders upon all human issues of rightness and wrongness. If you must compare the life of Jesus Christ to the life of Mohammed, or Zoraster or Sam Harris or Confucius or yourself or whoever you might consider as the Authority in final arbitration of life.

Originally posted by sonship

I'm not a Christian, so why would I subscribe to the Christian concept of sin and use Christian terminology? If you attacked me and stole my wallet, you're right, I wouldn't be happy but I wouldn't call it a 'sin' anymore than I would call it a transgression of Sharia or Hindu Law.

You would know that it was wrong.

Now it is re ...[text shortened]... nfucius or yourself or whoever you might consider as the Authority in final arbitration of life.

But if it really was really wrong, who is keeping track in an overall ultimate sense of the rightness and wrongness of everyone's actions ?

I don't believe there is anybody fulfilling that role. As for the rest, I'm not really sure why you're quoting scripture at me?

Originally posted by Proper Knob

I don't believe there is anybody fulfilling that role.

How do you know that that is not the same wishful thinking that Pol Pot or Stalin had ? Or the architects of the Spanish Inquisition.

They believed that they would answer to no one.
What if that is a mistake?

As for the rest, come on, your know your proselytising is wasted on me.

It might be a waste of time. But I think you either asked a question or encouraged me to remark on your post, so don't whine about proselytizing then if I answer you.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
[b]But if it really was really wrong, who is keeping track in an overall ultimate sense of the rightness and wrongness of everyone's actions ?

I don't believe there is anybody fulfilling that role. As for the rest, I'm not really sure why you're quoting scripture at me?[/b]

As for the rest, I'm not really sure why you're quoting scripture at me?

I quote Scripture based on my own experience as a skeptic. I argued a lot. I do not remember any of those points I argued. I do not remember any of the answers.

What I remembered was the word of God that was spoken to me. It is strange. It will either open a man's heart up or it will serve the function to harden him more.


But you will never be able to say that you were not told.

Originally posted by sonship

I don't believe there is anybody fulfilling that role.

How do you know that that is not the same wishful thinking that Pol Pot or Stalin had ? Or the architects of the Spanish Inquisition.

They believed that they would answer to no one.
What if that is a mistake?

[quote]
As for the rest, come on, your know your prosely ...[text shortened]... r encouraged me to remark on your post, so don't whine about proselytizing then if I answer you.

Prosletyze away, I'm not telling you to stop, merely letting you know you're wasting your time. 🙂

Originally posted by sonship

I don't believe there is anybody fulfilling that role.

How do you know that that is not the same wishful thinking that Pol Pot or Stalin had ? Or the architects of the Spanish Inquisition.

They believed that they would answer to no one.
What if that is a mistake?

[quote]
As for the rest, come on, your know your prosely ...[text shortened]... r encouraged me to remark on your post, so don't whine about proselytizing then if I answer you.

I have no idea what Stalin or Pol Pot thought, why would I? What do they have to do with anything?