30 Mar 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneYea, blame all of Christianity for hatred as if all of those that are not
Bravo.
The hatred and bigotry exhibited by "Christians" toward homosexuality "because it's a sin" is alarming. Yet these same individuals, when questioned, will almost invariably admit that they have yet to overcome sin themselves and that they readily accept others that have yet to do so. The hypocrisy is clear.
On top of that I have to say that ...[text shortened]... mitted homosexual relationships are even addressed in the Bible, no less deemed a "sin".
Christians do not have in its ranks people that hold the same hate as
well wihen it comes to Homosexuals. It is a sin, deal with it, you will
one way or another, but that sin is no different than any other, they
all lead to death and we are all sinners. The hypocrisy is with you,
blame all Christians for hate, because as you do, you act as if being
a Christian alone is the cause of the hate you may see in some. You
are doing to Christians with this hate speech as you are suggesting
all Christians do with their views of homosexuals.
Kelly
30 Mar 08
2 edits
Originally posted by KellyJayIt seems you've read way too much into my post.
Yea, blame all of Christianity for hatred as if all of those that are not
Christians do not have in its ranks people that hold the same hate as
well wihen it comes to Homosexuals. It is a sin, deal with it, you will
one way or another, but that sin is no different than any other, they
all lead to death and we are all sinners. The hypocrisy is with you, ...[text shortened]... his hate speech as you are suggesting
all Christians do with their views of homosexuals.
Kelly
My post was in response to an article about the un-Christian attitudes exhibited by so many self-proclaimed "Christians". The cause of the hate is because they don't follow the teachings of Jesus. Instead they follow the desires of the self. I didn't address non-Christian haters of homosexuals simply because it wasn't the topic of this thread.
That said, I have to say that I find "Christians" that use the Bible as a weapon in furthering their bigotry to be particularly heinous. Especially since it is unclear if committed homosexual relationships are addressed.
30 Mar 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI agree wholeheartedly but don't you see that it is Biblical literalism and judgementalism that is at the heart of this problem? One takes a few verses out of context and hey presto you have got licenced homophobia. Do you not now see why I have a problem with you taking some of Jesus's words out of context ??
It seems you've read way too much into my post.
My post was in response to an article about the un-Christian attitudes exhibited by so many self-proclaimed "Christians". The cause of the hate is because they don't follow the teachings of Jesus. Instead they follow the desires of the self. I didn't address non-Christian haters of homosexuals simply beca ...[text shortened]... ous. Especially since it is unclear if committed homosexual relationships are addressed.
31 Mar 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterIt's not that I take the words of Jesus 'out of context', it's that you dismiss them in order to hold on to your self-serving beliefs.
I agree wholeheartedly but don't you see that it is Biblical literalism and judgementalism that is at the heart of this problem? One takes a few verses out of context and hey presto you have got licenced homophobia. Do you not now see why I have a problem with you taking some of Jesus's words out of context ??
31 Mar 08
Originally posted by josephwYou are claiming that most heterosexuals endure more hatred and bigotry than homosexuals? Where do you live?
While it is true that the homosexuals have endured hatred and bigotry, they have been far less the recipients of hatred, bigotry, and prejudice than most other people. And that's a fact!
And please explain to the comment that AThousandYoung was questioning. At face value it looks like you were claiming that Christians are particularly downtrodden. If you did not mean that, then what did you mean?
31 Mar 08
Originally posted by FabianFnasI still haven't got any answers of these questions, not even any comments.
But when the bible says that homosexual men (nothing is said about the homosexual women) deserve to die, does that mean that (1) the bible is not true, or (2) christians now are turning away from the word of god, or (3) god has changed his mind about homosexuals?
Homosexual people, even homosexual women, has ben harassed by christians during, how many ...[text shortened]... that homosexuals also deserves the love of god.
Has the time come to elect a homosexual pope?
If the bible says that homosexuals should die for their acts, and some christians now says that they deserve respect, then we have an paradox.
If the bible is the word of god and therefore considered true, why then are not the homosexuals slaughtered like animals, as they should says the bible?
(My opinion is that if homosexuals are created by god, then they are a part of the divine creation. Deny homosexuals and you deny his creation. This is not the word of the bible, this is my personal belief.)
31 Mar 08
Originally posted by FabianFnasIt says the same about many other sins, including adultery. The truth is that if such rules were followed to the letter, there wouldn't be many Christians left.
If the bible says that homosexuals should die for their acts, and some christians now says that they deserve respect, then we have an paradox.
31 Mar 08
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadIf I interprete you correctly - If the bible is considered true, then there wouldn't be many Christians left?
It says the same about many other sins, including adultery. The truth is that if such rules were followed to the letter, there wouldn't be many Christians left.
So those who says the bible, the word of god, is not true, is wrong? That the bible is not to be taken seriously?
Am I right or am I wrong in this
31 Mar 08
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneBut logically you cannot be taking a balanced approach on his words because you miss out so much of what he said from elsewhere (eg Holy Spirit , communion) and concentrate on the few words that fit your interpretations. This is exactly what homophobic fundies do when they focus on a few passages that seem to support their position whilst detracting from Jesus' compassion and acceptance.
It's not that I take the words of Jesus 'out of context', it's that you dismiss them in order to hold on to your self-serving beliefs.
I do not dismiss his words , it's just that I don't treat the passages you quote as if they were the only things he ever said.
31 Mar 08
Originally posted by FabianFnasActually it is far more complicated than it first appears. The most important issue is interpretation. What you and I may think is a direct commandment from God, explicitly laid out in clear English in the Bible, may be interpreted completely differently by someone else, especially someone who has strong motivations for doing so.
If I interprete you correctly - If the bible is considered true, then there wouldn't be many Christians left?
So those who says the bible, the word of god, is not true, is wrong? That the bible is not to be taken seriously?
Am I right or am I wrong in this
I have heard the following basic themes to explain some of the difficult stuff:
1. Jesus changed the rules so we can ignore most of the Old testament.
2. Some rules only applied 'back then'.
3. The Bible is not the direct word of God and a lot of it is merely the opinions of the authors.
Many Christians (the majority) do not believe the Bible is the exact word of God (and thus not wrong in any detail.)
31 Mar 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadThanky you, twhitehead, for your serious answer. I appreciate this.
Actually it is far more complicated than it first appears. The most important issue is interpretation. What you and I may think is a direct commandment from God, explicitly laid out in clear English in the Bible, may be interpreted completely differently by someone else, especially someone who has strong motivations for doing so.
I have heard the followi ...[text shortened]... ajority) do not believe the Bible is the exact word of God (and thus not wrong in any detail.)
That means that we cannot ever trust in every word of the bible. We can interpret them as we want, depending of culture, time, status and more. What is written in stone for one person can be discarded by another.
Back to homosexuality:
In the bible we can read that homosexuality is a mortal sin. It was then, but it has not to be now. Jesus told of love to everyone, then we must include homosexuals. Have I got it right?
31 Mar 08
1 edit
Originally posted by FabianFnasNo. I said that is what people do, not what 'we can' do. What you do, is up to you. I am an atheist by the way and was merely giving some of the explanations I have heard from Christians and even then, only as I understood them.
That means that we cannot ever trust in every word of the bible. We can interpret them as we want, depending of culture, time, status and more. What is written in stone for one person can be discarded by another.
I do think that many people do interpret the Bible the way they want to without realizing how much bias they are applying. Some do realize it, but for lack of a better solution, try not to think about it to hard.
Back to homosexuality:
In the bible we can read that homosexuality is a mortal sin. It was then, but it has not to be now. Jesus told of love to everyone, then we must include homosexuals. Have I got it right?
It is disputable whether any such claims are made by the Bible. Jesus did tell of loving everyone sinners included, and I think a Christian should do so, but that is not the same as saying it is not sin. I think most Christians would claim that they love homosexuals, drunks, adulterers or any other people who are known to be committing grave sin but would not want any of them to be important people in their Church hierarchy and I think they have a good point. Whether they should deny them membership to the church is another matter.
I think another major issue is that many homosexuals would not admit that their actions are sinful, whereas a drunk or adulterer probably would.
Note that I am not claiming that homosexual behavior is sinful, merely that some churches do hold that it is.