OT God

Originally posted by stocken
The possible creation of universe from a great explosion is hardly the
same as saying that the earth and the heaven (one tiny particle in the
universal scheme of things) was created as one unit and the parted so
that all living things could be created from water.

Science I believe claim that all life on earth started in the seas, and if
that's cor would have been created from the water that we
require for our very survival (true or not).

Wow,

You are doing exactly what you don't want religous people to do.

Quran is clear, every living is created from water. But you don't want to accept that because GOD doesn't exist, so you have to find another explaination !!!!!!

Bing Bang is considerable theory. If you don't accept it you can say that, but that doesn't mean it has prove.

I cann't force you to belive, but they way you are trying to escape is funny to me.

Originally posted by ahosyney
Wow,

You are doing exactly what you don't want religous people to do.

I am? 😕

I didn't realise that. I thought I was quite open about it. Having
alternative explanations to things, is not the same as completely
invalidating them. Don't you see? If there are several ways to explain
something, it only means we really can't tell which is correct yet. Once we
reach a point where no one, anywhere, no matter how critical can give a
plausible alternative explanation to a certain event or phenomenon do we
know (or not know at all) the truth about it.

Originally posted by stocken
I am? 😕

I didn't realise that. I thought I was quite open about it. Having
alternative explanations to things, is not the same as completely
invalidating them. Don't you see? If there are several ways to explain
something, it only means we really can't tell which is correct yet. Once we
reach a point where no one, anywhere, no matter how critical ...[text shortened]... nation to a certain event or phenomenon do we
know (or not know at all) the truth about it.

Ok, may be you some how right. I will not jump to concolusion now.

So in this verse there are two points:

1- The earth and heaven are created using a force spreaded them. I say it might be refereing to Big Bang.

2- The other point is that the every living is created from water.

Two scientific points. I say they are written in Quran 1400 years ago , while know one was able to know them. They only know today.

So how can the prophet know them unless they are revealed to him by GOD? Why cann't this be a possible explaination?

Give me your second explaination and lets discuss it togather.

Originally posted by ahosyney
Ok, may be you some how right. I will not jump to concolusion now.

So in this verse there are two points:

1- The earth and heaven are created using a force spreaded them. I say it might be refereing to Big Bang.

2- The other point is that the every living is created from water.

Two scientific points. I say they are written in Quran 1400 years a s be a possible explaination?

Give me your second explaination and lets discuss it togather.

There are two possibilities we're dealing with here. 1) Allah exist and
spoke to the rest of us through Muhammed, or 2) Allah does not exist
and Muhammed made it all up.

Looking at the text you describe it would seem incredible how
Muhammed could know that all life came from the seas, when only
recently scientists have been able to derive that conclusion from fossil
evidence and whatever else. But, if I'm arguing for the second case, I
can easily see how someone living in or near the desert would realise the
importance of water and thus draw the conclusion that all life comes from
it. On land there is little life to be seen, in the sea there's plenty.

As for the bing [sic] bang (sorry, I thought that sounded amusing - I do
realise it's a simple spelling mistake 🙂 ) and the connection you make
to the text where Allah supposedly divided the earth and heavens after
having created a unity, I think that one is a little too far fetched. An
explosion and the division you speak of are quite different in nature.
Besides, the Big Bang refers to the creation of the entire universe,
whereas Allah only speaks of heaven and the earth.

You need to show something a little more concrete. Like the Qur'an
stating that everything is made out of small particles (atoms). (Actually,
I believe the ancient greeks were thinking along those lines, hence the
word.) 😕 I don't know what would convince me really. I'd have to think
about that.

Originally posted by stocken
There are two possibilities we're dealing with here. 1) Allah exist and
spoke to the rest of us through Muhammed, or 2) Allah does not exist
and Muhammed made it all up.

Looking at the text you describe it would seem incredible how
Muhammed could know that all life came from the seas, when only
recently scientists have been able to derive that con ...[text shortened]... e
word.) 😕 I don't know what would convince me really. I'd have to think
about that.

🙂 I really want to help you to get convinced. But you tell me how 🙂

An Important note, so far we are talking about a single verse, there is a lot more.

Ok For the first point , the living from see. I will leave to you to think about it. Is your explaination really make sense? It may make sense but it is very weak to me.

For the second point: Quran is talking about heavens , not heaven. So I understand to include the universe, but you don't have to accept it.

Also the word used to represent the separation is arabic means separation by force. So we don't really know they type of explotion the Big Bang talks about , but may the Quran description is correct.

Also Quran agree with Big Bang in point, that the universe (If you just agree that heavens imply universe) was one mass and exploded, so before it became universe, it was there with another form.

Quran say they were one unit and sparated.

So what is the real different between Big Bang and this Verse? I think, the only difference is universe vs heavens.

Do you want to move to another verse...!!!!!

sorry to butt in, but just a question;

According to the Quran, is a day, 24hrs, 1000 years , or 50,000 years?

Originally posted by ahosyney
🙂 I really want to help you to get convinced. But you tell me how 🙂

An Important note, so far we are talking about a single verse, there is a lot more.

Ok For the first point , the living from see. I will leave to you to think about it. Is your explaination really make sense? It may make sense but it is very weak to me.

For the second point: Qura k, the only difference is universe vs heavens.

Do you want to move to another verse...!!!!!

You're "heavens are universe" explanation is just as weak as my "living
in the desert" theory. 🙂

Meaning, we still don't know which one is correct. I grant you that the life
from water is an interesting coincidence if not more.

By all means, present some other passages that you feel holds similarity
to what modern science has been able to verify in a way that Muhammed
couldn't possibly have known 1400 years ago. This is what a discussion is
all about after all, and frankly, this is the most interesting discussion I've
seen here in a while.

Addition: And please don't see this as trying to convince
me. That's almost cheap. Instead, think of it as strengthening your
own beliefs. That should be more worthwhile to you, I'd think.

Originally posted by snowinscotland
sorry to butt in, but just a question;

According to the Quran, is a day, 24hrs, 1000 years , or 50,000 years?

It doesn't say 24hrs = 1000 years

It say that the GOD day is not like our days.

Our day is depending on the rotation of the earth in front of the earth, but before creating the earth and son there is no 24 hrs.

So GOD day is not like ours.

How long is it? There are several location in the Quran where GOD talk about his day. It is mentioned 3 times it is like 1000 years of ours.

Only one time it was said it is 50000 years when Quran was talking about a specific day , surrah 70:4

Originally posted by stocken
You're "heavens are universe" explanation is just as weak as my "living
in the desert" theory. 🙂

Meaning, we still don't know which one is correct. I grant you that the life
from water is an interesting coincidence if not more.

By all means, present some other passages that you feel holds similarity
to what modern science has been able to verify s strengthening your
own beliefs. That should be more worthwhile to you, I'd think.

🙂 Yes of course, In the begining of this thread I pointed out my Idea. Most of the Athiests I have seen here attack GOD through the Bible, but I didn't see any one try to do the same through Quran (or any other religon) , I woundered why? I think no one actually know Quran or tried to read it? So I wanted to see what they will say.

Any way lets continue , lets see the following verses:
021.031
YUSUFALI: And We have set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with them, and We have made therein broad highways (between mountains) for them to pass through: that they may receive Guidance.
PICKTHAL: And We have placed in the earth firm hills lest it quake with them, and We have placed therein ravines as roads that haply they may find their way.
SHAKIR: And We have made great mountains in the earth lest it might be convulsed with them, and We have made in it wide ways that they may follow a right direction.

021.032
YUSUFALI: And We have made the heavens as a canopy well guarded: yet do they turn away from the Signs which these things (point to)!
PICKTHAL: And we have made the sky a roof withheld (from them). Yet they turn away from its portents.
SHAKIR: And We have made the heaven a guarded canopy and (yet) they turn aside from its signs.

021.033
YUSUFALI: It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.
PICKTHAL: And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.
SHAKIR: And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres.


They come directly after the verse we were discussing before. Here Quran is talking about some points. Some of them may be known before Quran (Like the sun and moon are running in Orbits), but the point which I think is new is the part talking about making the sky a gaurding canopy. I think it is will know now that the sky work as a protection for earth from falling bodies from space. But it was mentioned in the Quran.

My the mountain verse also has some scientific roots, but I'm not really sure of it.

Note: Here the word sky is used not heaven. That why I told you heavens could refere to the universe , but don't worry about that 🙂

Originally posted by ahosyney
[b]🙂 Yes of course, In the begining of this thread I pointed out my Idea. Most of the Athiests I have seen here attack GOD through the Bible, but I didn't see any one try to do the same through Quran (or any other religon) , I woundered why? I think no one actually know Quran or tried to read it? So I wanted to see what they will say.

But does the Bible not say the same thing? Psalms 90:4 says that a day to God is as a 1000 years to man. It also says in Genesis 2:4, "These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created." So if one day is a literal day to us, what are the generations referring to? Also the Bible points out that life is in the blood in Leviticus 17:11 in comparison to the Quran pointing out that water is necessary for life to exist. The Bible also seems to indicate that life sprang from water as pointed out in Genesis 1:20 as it says, "And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that has life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament." So I ask you, since the Bible predates the Quran, how where these ideas new to Muhammad?

Originally posted by whodey
But does the Bible not say the same thing? Psalms 90:4 says that a day to God is as a 1000 years to man. It also says in Genesis 2:4, "These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created." So if one day is a literal day to us, what are the generations referring to? Also the Bible points out that life is in the blood in Leviticus ...[text shortened]... ." So I ask you, since the Bible predates the Quran, how where these ideas new to Muhammad?

And the ancient Greeks were before even the oldest of the biblical scrolls (The dead sea scrolls, earliest date at 200 BC).

Oh my god, why bother.

In my country we not care. . . At least once Jew is dead. . You see more. . .Jen Qeuy

Originally posted by whodey
But does the Bible not say the same thing? Psalms 90:4 says that a day to God is as a 1000 years to man. It also says in Genesis 2:4, "These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created." So if one day is a literal day to us, what are the generations referring to? Also the Bible points out that life is in the blood in Leviticus ...[text shortened]... ." So I ask you, since the Bible predates the Quran, how where these ideas new to Muhammad?

Quran say:

024.045
YUSUFALI: And Allah has created every animal from water: of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things.
PICKTHAL: Allah hath created every animal of water. Of them is (a kind) that goeth upon its belly and (a kind) that goeth upon two legs and (a kind) that goeth upon four. Allah createth what He will. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.
SHAKIR: And Allah has created from water every living creature: so of them is that which walks upon its belly, and of them is that which walks upon two feet, and of them is that which walks upon four; Allah creates what He pleases; surely Allah has power over all things.

And it also say:
021.030
YUSUFALI: Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
PICKTHAL: Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?
SHAKIR: Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the earth were closed up, but We have opened them; and We have made of water everything living, will they not then believe?


So it clearly state that every living is created from water.

But compare Genesis 1:20, 1:24, you will find that in Bible not every living from water, some from water others from earth. I will leave it to to compare.

About GOD's day: In Gen 2:4 -I don't know what generations refers to here, the Arabic Bible give a totaly different meaning. So I cann't say.

But for Psalms 90:4 Doesn't say that GOD day is 1000 years

Psalms 90:4 "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night."

How can you read this as GOD day is 1000 years.

I hope you explain it to me and link it to the one in Genesis.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
And the ancient Greeks were before even the oldest of the biblical scrolls (The dead sea scrolls, earliest date at 200 BC).

I will be more happy that you point out where exactly the parts in Quran that you think are taken from ancient Greeks rather saying something like that. What you say doesn't mean anything. I replayed to you before but you didn't bother response. You are just happy of your finding, "Ancient Greeks were older".