Our view of Death

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Please see my replies to FMF and twhithead, tomorrow, certainly.

It's ok if you dont. I will enjoy reading your replies to the other posters, and my post was mainly for the atheists more than you. So maybe you should focus your energies on their posts more than mine. But whatever floats your boat 🙂

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Is it me or do you just cherry pick through posts that you obviously have a beef with but couldn't be bothered answering many of the major points, instead just picking a choosing a line here or there to refute?

If I agree with something, I don't always reply with an agreement. It just doesn't seem necessary. Occasionally I will click the thumbs up if someone says something profound, or if it is critical to the discussion I will state my agreement to something. But generally, I reply to things I think are incorrect. Surely that makes sense? I also often state my own views - especially when asked as in the OP of the thread.
In this post, I have not disputed anything you said, I am merely explaining something to you.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Well, I am ready to debate, no problem but here it is 10:35 pm and I have to eat. Your post certainly deserves a reply. Maybe tomorrow.

Lets start with a discussion of what exactly continues after death. Lets call it the soul.
Does your soul contain memory? Does it contain character? Whose memory and character?

Suppose I grow old, and go mad and loose all my memory. After I die will I have any memory? Will I be mad? If I have memories, from which part of my life will they be chosen? Will I act youthful, old and wise, old and mad? Will I still be me?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
No it's not wishful thinking, it's logical deduction. Or haven't you had a dream?

Cant you entertain the possibilty that your whole life is a dream?
Have you ever had a dream within a dream, where you wake up only to find yourself in another dream?

Also, with dreams, it is a contention of some sciency guys that dreams are only a reworking of t ...[text shortened]... ience to new weird and wonderful places. Or are you still back with Newton and the apple?

No it's not wishful thinking, it's logical deduction. Or haven't you had a dream? Cant you entertain the possibilty that your whole life is a dream?
Have you ever had a dream within a dream, where you wake up only to find yourself in another dream?

A few posts later you say your comments in this thread are more for atheists. I identify as non-theist.

Is it correct to assume the point you want to make, is that we cannot empirically show that we will not "wake up" from this life when we die 'in' it, and after we wake up, we will experience the next 'level'? If this is not your point, please correct me.

What makes you say it is a possibility? What do you logically deduce, when you entertain it as a possibility?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
i cant speak for all atheists but thats how i see it.

How do you reconcile this view of yourself with the fact that you as a human are equipped with an exceedingly powerful tool viz.the human brain and the reasoning and imaginative faculties that have been harnessed by you to make you the master of this planet and to come to grips with even more difficult metaphysical questions that have intrigued you since ages ? Are you no different from a fungus that grows on wet walls for a day or two and dies off with the first blast of hot air ? If and when your mind is perturbed by the fact of the inevitability of death, what is your reaction ? Please do tell me, if you search for the answer to the puzzle of death or meekly go forth as a lamb to slaughter.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Please do tell me, if you search for the answer to the puzzle of death or meekly go forth as a lamb to slaughter.

I am curious as to whether you feel citing folk tales from the Bhagavad Geeta, ostensibly to help you "prepare" for death, means - in your view - you are somehow not being "meek".

Originally posted by kevcvs57
If you are correct and the vast majority of thiests believe that death is a new beginning, do they ever wonder what bearing this might have as a motivational causation for their willingness to believe in their god despite the lack of hard evidence? or more specifically do you?

You are possibly referring to Reification.( Pl.correct me if I am wrong.) Reification is the ability of the brain to convert a concept into a concrete thing, to bestow upon something the quality of being real or true. It refers to the power of the mind to grant meaning and substance to its own perceptions.( quote from Andrew Newberg and Eugene D'Aquili's book " why God will not go away " ). No, I have not elevated the concept of afterlife into God's kingdom, yet. My belief tells me that the individual soul is immortal and death of the body is an intermediate stage.

Originally posted by twhitehead
First, I would like to clarify here that atheists are those people who do not believe in God. Many atheists I know accept the scientific method as the best way to learn about the universe, but this is hardly a requirement of atheism. There are probably plenty of atheists who are very unscientific and may even have Faith in something other than a god.
I m ic many times on this forum and theists generally run for the hills every time it comes up.

Instead of grouping theists and atheists into various types, let us take you as an example of atheists and myself as an example of theists. Both of us accept Scientific Method but I accept it with the limitation that it may not be the correct way of knowing about the spiritual world. Atheists, in general, disavow existence of Free Will. Let us agree that Free Will means the freedom that a human has in thinking and acting on his/her own unrestricted or uncontrollable by external factors.Existence of Free Will means a freedom that has been endowed on the humanity alone out of all living beings. This endowment has come from God or that has evolved as a feature, depending on whether a theist or an atheist views it. Do you believe in Free Will ? It will help in further discussions.

Originally posted by Rank outsider
I think you probably could, providing you don't take the next step, as many religious people do, in stating that therefore atheists view life as 'meaningless', 'hopeless', or having no moral compass.

We have all experienced 'non-life' (about 13-14 billion years, depending on your view of when time started, and ignoring those who believe in reincarna ...[text shortened]... en anything to suggest that any other explanation should be regarded as more likely.

I do not understand what you mean when you say that we " experienced non-life " some 13 to 14 billion years ago before we were born. How can we experience something when we were not even born, that too billions of years ago ? Moreover, I do not think Time began at a particular point.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Instead of grouping theists and atheists into various types, let us take you as an example of atheists and myself as an example of theists.

But one cannot speak generally about athiests. They have nothing in common except an absence of belief in God. Its as futile as trying to talk about those who don't believe in Santa Claus.

Both of us accept Scientific Method but I accept it with the limitation that it may not be the correct way of knowing about the spiritual world.
What do you do when the Scientific Method disagrees with whatever other methods you have?

Atheists, in general, disavow existence of Free Will.
Thats nonsense. As I point out, there is nothing one can say 'in general' about atheists other than their lack of belief in God. I don't even think it is accurate to say that most atheists disavow the existence of Free Will. I certainly don't. Not without a bit more concrete definition anyway. Free will is not in any way a theistic concept.

Let us agree that Free Will means the freedom that a human has in thinking and acting on his/her own unrestricted or uncontrollable by external factors.
What does this 'human being' consist of? What constitutes 'external factors'? Are you saying that if I devise a mind control device that works through electrically stimulating your brain that it won't work? Are you saying that your past experiences and memories have no impact on your decisions? One needs to be a lot more specific.

Existence of Free Will means a freedom that has been endowed on the humanity alone out of all living beings.
So it is your claim that my cat does not have free will? How do you know this? What external factors control his thoughts?

This endowment has come from God or that has evolved as a feature, depending on whether a theist or an atheist views it. Do you believe in Free Will ? It will help in further discussions.
It depends on how it is defined. I believe that my thoughts are a result of computer like processes in my brain that include input from memories, experiences, wiring, DNA, and randomness. I do not believe my way of thinking is unique to humans, but that my cat is capable of quite sophisticated thought too.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
How do you reconcile this view of yourself with the fact that you as a human are equipped with an exceedingly powerful tool viz.the human brain and the reasoning and imaginative faculties that have been harnessed by you to make you the master of this planet and to come to grips with even more difficult metaphysical questions that have intrigued you since ...[text shortened]... , if you search for the answer to the puzzle of death or meekly go forth as a lamb to slaughter.

i do not see how our ability to think has any effect on what happens after death.
why should we be different to a fungus when we die, we are by far a more complex organism but that doesnt mean we are special when we are dead.
I think about death, i dont want to die, i have a family and i want to see them grow up and start there own families. i dont see death as a metaphysical puzzle, i see it as a scientific puzzle and there are much more qualified people working on that than me. so for the moment ill wait meekly (although thats your emotive language im using, i would say im just getting on with life and trying to enjoy it) in line hoping that science can prolong my life as much as possible.

do you try to answer the puzzle? what exactly is the puzzle? how will you know you have answered it correctly?

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
...without Free Will, human beings are reduced to a masses of flesh, bones, muscles etc.subjected to a series of biochemical reactions, with no clue as to the meaning of their own existence.

How do you define "meaning" here? Are you claiming that your concoction of imagination, hope and myths/folk tales constitutes "meaning"? Or does this "meaning" you are talking about consist of your speculation about the afterlife?

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I do not understand what you mean when you say that we " experienced non-life " some 13 to 14 billion years ago before we were born. How can we experience something when we were not even born, that too billions of years ago ? Moreover, I do not think Time began at a particular point.

Perhaps my language could have been better, but I suspect you know what I meant.

Before we were born we were not alive. After death, we will not be alive again, and one atheist view is that the states are most likely to be the same.

You can argue the time point with the quantum physicists on the Science Forum!

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
You are possibly referring to Reification.( Pl.correct me if I am wrong.) Reification is the ability of the brain to convert a concept into a concrete thing, to bestow upon something the quality of being real or true. It refers to the power of the mind to grant meaning and substance to its own perceptions.( quote from Andrew Newberg and Eugene D'Aquili's ...[text shortened]... lls me that the individual soul is immortal and death of the body is an intermediate stage.

Honestly I do not Know enough about Reification to be sure; but I recognize it from your description. However I was wondering if you have ever considered that the temptation of avoiding the 'going kaput' concept of death might be enough to cause the brain to engage in this reification and discarded it as an explanation?

Originally posted by JS357

No it's not wishful thinking, it's logical deduction. Or haven't you had a dream? Cant you entertain the possibilty that your whole life is a dream?
Have you ever had a dream within a dream, where you wake up only to find yourself in another dream?

A few posts later you say your comments in this thread are more for atheists. I identify a is a possibility? What do you logically deduce, when you entertain it as a possibility?

My points were following on from the points made in that movie.

I really cant work this question out, despite having read it over and over : " Is it correct to assume the point you want to make, is that we cannot empirically show that we will not "wake up" from this life when we die 'in' it, and after we wake up, we will experience the next 'level'?"

It is true that I think that if we "wake up" we will experience higher dimensions or the next level, but I really cant work out what that has to do with the rest of my post 😕
Sorry, I'm getting a bit confused