Originally posted by JS357If you could rid the world of everything that appeals to self interest, then nothing would be left that appeals to anyone.
I said, "My comments are more an exhortation that a factual claim. The exhortatory nature of moral claims is part of moral/ethical theory. I am exhorting you to have a moral code that will not depend on belief or disbelief that God exists.
I think any God worthy of the name would want that."
and you then said,
"I guess that is where we part company." ...[text shortened]... that Pascal's Wager is itself flawed, as it is an appeal to selfish interests. Do you disagree?
Pascals Wager involves three possible outcomes... win, lose or draw. Winning or losing doesn't involve someone else losing or winning, so the only person impacted by making this wager would the person making the wager. If you place a bet and win and I place a bet and lose, neither one of us is responsible for the outcome of the other. Your winning doesn't cause me to lose and my losing doesn't cause you to win.
My point is that selfishness and self interest aren't necessarily joined at the hip... you can allow yourself to indulge in self interests without being selfish.
17 Feb 15
Originally posted by JS357I'm telling you that only because I believe God exists do I think there is a
I said, "My comments are more an exhortation that a factual claim. The exhortatory nature of moral claims is part of moral/ethical theory. I am exhorting you to have a moral code that will not depend on belief or disbelief that God exists.
I think any God worthy of the name would want that."
and you then said,
"I guess that is where we part company." ...[text shortened]... that Pascal's Wager is itself flawed, as it is an appeal to selfish interests. Do you disagree?
moral claim that matters to us all. We each can have a moral claim all to
our own and fight about whose is better, we can join sides and gang up on
those we really disagree with those that are close to our beliefs. All of that
can take place with or without God, the only time it really matters is if there
is a moral giver that resides above man that isn't swayed by our petty
differences, lusts, likes, loves and so on.
A God worth anything in my opinion would see the proper way to act and
give us direction instead of leaving us on our own to figure it out.
I've not talked about rewards and punishments, but when we train our
children we too use that model. It is something we learn with!
I agree that Pascal's wager is flawed, because it actually avoids the real
question among those that believe in God, which is, do you belong to Him?
Simply looking at the choices isn't enough in my opinion, you have to
answer God's call on your life. There is wisdom to it, burn or no, but that
will not get you into God's grace just seeing that. That appeal could be used
by two guys talking about robbing a bank, do you want the money or no?
Originally posted by KellyJayMore specifically, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house [if your family members
I'm telling you that only because I believe God exists do I think there is a
moral claim that matters to us all. We each can have a moral claim all to
our own and fight about whose is better, we can join sides and gang up on
those we really disagree with those that are close to our beliefs. All of that
can take place with or without God, the only time it r ...[text shortened]... t. That appeal could be used
by two guys talking about robbing a bank, do you want the money or no?
also believe, they shall be saved too]." Acts 16:31 Even the fallen angels believe in God (James 2:19)
17 Feb 15
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Originally posted by Grampy BobbyWhy did the fallen angels upset god if they believed in him/her/ it? Pretty stupid don't you think?
More specifically, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house [if your family members
also believe, they shall be saved too]." Acts 16:31 Even the fallen angels believe in God (James 2:19)
17 Feb 15
Originally posted by OdBodThe fallen angels, are just that fallen, they knew about God for them it was
Why did the fallen angels upset god if they believed in him/her/ it? Pretty stupid don't you think?
never a matter of if God was real or not. So the point was made that they
believe in God and it does them no good. They will be judged for their sins
and they have nothing but a devil's hell to look forward to.
17 Feb 15
Originally posted by KellyJayI think its fair to say that the angles knew god intimately, certainly better than us lowly Humans. They knew of his power etc and they lived in heaven, so my post still stands, why did they upset him/her/it?
The fallen angels, are just that fallen, they knew about God for them it was
never a matter of if God was real or not. So the point was made that they
believe in God and it does them no good. They will be judged for their sins
and they have nothing but a devil's hell to look forward to.
Originally posted by OdBodSeveral possibilities:
Why did the fallen angels upset god if they believed in him/her/ it? Pretty stupid don't you think?
1. They believed he exists, but did not know enough about him.
2. They were as you say 'pretty stupid' ie they did not, for whatever reason, have the necessary intelligence to make the sensible decision, or acted emotional.
3. There was some benefit to them that we are not aware of that they judged made the deal worthwhile.
4. Its all made up, so there is no actual answer (unless you make one up).
17 Feb 15
Originally posted by OdBodOriginally posted by Grampy Bobby Thread 161838
Why did the fallen angels upset god if they believed in him/her/ it? Pretty stupid don't you think?
Believe there are several other active contributors who may be interested. So, let's wait a few more days before we begin. There are no ground rules per se; only an expectation that mutual common courtesy and thoughtfulness of others with different views will be observed. With a biblical subject of this scope and depth, format considerations will be required to encourage maximum focus with minimal confusion. The first will be to recognize and remember that our subject has four chronological components: 1) The biblical account of the angelic creation in eternity past; 2) Lucifer's arrogant rebellion;
3) The third of the angelic host who shared his desire to replace the very God who created them; 4) Its impact on human history, which will be discussed individually in their progressive sequence. Thanks for your interest. -Bob (Page 1)
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (Page 5)
"In speaking to Job God confirmed that the angels preexisted creation: Job 38:4-7 (NASB) 4 "Where were you [Job] when I [God] laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, 5 Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? 6 On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars [angels] sang together And all the sons of God [the entire angelic creation] shouted for joy?" They "shouted for joy" when the universe, "the heavens and earth", were created: Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
The Bible records four distinct beginnings: A) John 1:1 "In the beginning [which was not a true beginning since God is eternal, self-existent and has no beginning or end] was the Word [logos] and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." B) The creation or origination of the angels at some point in eternity past before the creation of the universe. C) Genesis 1:1 documents the creation of the heavens and earth [hashamsyim, in the plural meaning the universe which was created as the domain of the angels]. During this time Lucifer rebelled against God and enticed one third of the angelic host to follow him (as revealed in Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28 and Revelation 12). This prehistoric revolt took place on planet earth bringing utter chaos upon it. This planet was enshrouded in darkness without light or heat causing the earth's waters to freeze into an ice pack as part of God's judgment. Before the earth could be inhabited again the restoration recorded in Genesis 1:2 would be necessary. D) Fourth beginning, following this restoration, the creation of the human race. Next: Lucifer's trial, sentence, appeal and the role of human volition." (Page 3)
Eternity Past: Angelic Creation; Genesis 1:1 Creation of the Heavens and Earth; Lucifer's Revolt; Genesis 1:2-31 Restoration of the Earth; On Day Six: Creation of Land Creatures and Mankind) ---> [human history began]---> (Eternity Future
17 Feb 15
The refutation of Pascal's wager is straightforward (and may have been mentioned in the thread, I have not read it in its entirety). Its problem is that it assumes that it is more likely that a hypothetical God wants you to believe in its existence than there is a hypothetical God who disapproves of your beliefs, either in itself or in some other god. A priori, such an assumption is unjustified.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbySorry mate, can't do all that biblical text stuff. But I would love to hear your opinion in your words.
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby Thread 161838
Believe there are several other active contributors who may be interested. So, let's wait a few more days before we begin. There are no ground rules per se; only an expectation that mutual common courtesy and thoughtfulness of others with different views will be observed. With a bibli ...[text shortened]... Day Six: Creation of Land Creatures and Mankind) ---> [human history began]---> (Eternity Future
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17 Feb 15
Originally posted by KazetNagorraThat is but one of many problems with this argument.
The refutation of Pascal's wager is straightforward (and may have been mentioned in the thread, I have not read it in its entirety). Its problem is that it assumes that it is more likely that a hypothetical God wants you to believe in its existence than there is a hypothetical God who disapproves of your beliefs, either in itself or in some other god. A priori, such an assumption is unjustified.
Originally posted by OdBodThey rebelled, they put themselves first, or at least the devil did, and there
I think its fair to say that the angles knew god intimately, certainly better than us lowly Humans. They knew of his power etc and they lived in heaven, so my post still stands, why did they upset him/her/it?
were those that followed him. A third of them followed him and they were
cast out to the earth where they are pissed off, and now they spend what
little time left trying to drag us down with them.
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17 Feb 15
Originally posted by KellyJayIn terms of it's structure, this is a statement of fact, a claim of knowledge.
They rebelled, they put themselves first or at least the devil did and there
were those that followed him. A third of them followed him and they were
cast out to the earth where they are pissed off, and now they spend what
little time left trying to drag us down with them.
So I say, "Prove it".
You are claiming knowledge, to do so you must be able to prove said knowledge claim.
If you cannot prove it, I ask you rephrase your response to indicate that you are not
in fact making any claim of fact and knowledge.
To do otherwise is inherently dishonest.
17 Feb 15
Originally posted by OdBodThe fallen Angels know God far better than any human.
I think its fair to say that the angles knew god intimately, certainly better than us lowly Humans. They knew of his power etc and they lived in heaven, so my post still stands, why did they upset him/her/it?
They knew his Power, but also his faults.
They bravely chose to rebel against impossible odds. (2:1 ?)
But they bravely did.
For what?
FREEDOM
Originally posted by OdBodOdBod, I appreciate the apparent rational rather than emotional focus and intellectual honesty of your reply. Several of your posts in "If..." to the question "Do you believe God exists:" caused me to believe that you were seriously seeking answers without regard for peer pressure to do otherwise similar to the reply from C Hess: "Maybe, but I doubt it. I guess my vote is no."; in Thread 162802 (Page 6) The words in this thread other than mine are attributed to scriptural passages and/or to other external sources with website links provided. If you're serious about your eternal destiny, we'll continue. -Bob
Sorry mate, can't do all that biblical text stuff. But I would love to hear your opinion in your words.