Originally posted by kevcvs57
But on the good news front we do frown at pedophilia and child labour, whereas victorians tolerated both, based purely on the class system which in turn was sanctioned by the main organised religions of the day. At the same time many good works were done by individual christians and smaller scale christian organisations to alleviate and improve the lot of t ...[text shortened]... for fear of gangs of youths roaming the streets intent on robbery and violence, sound familiar?

Actually the Victorians didn't tolerate both, in the mines in Scotland it was the Victorians
who banned child labour. As for paedophilia, I cannot say. But its refreshing to hear
you give some credence to the efforts on the part of some religious organisations to
alleviate suffering through social works although i must admit a rather loathing that
Churches in many instances happen to be the most ostentatious of buildings when they
would have no doubt been surrounded by squalor.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
I'm afraid you've lost me, and i think you may have gotten lost yourself. I don't know what you're trying to debate now Rob!?

If you think that tdoay's society has morally degenerated then you have to show when in the past it has degenerated from. You have yet to do that as far as i can see.

I think its perfectly clear, people are more willing to accept a morality which would have
been quite prohibitive some decades before.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I think its perfectly clear, people are more willing to accept a morality which would have
been quite prohibitive some decades before.

You think that because today we are more accepting of nudity than the Victorians this represents a 'degeneration of society due to a degrading of morals'?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I think its perfectly clear, people are more willing to accept a morality which would have
been quite prohibitive some decades before.

Indeed, moral values change. But that does not mean that they always change for the worse.

Whether we are more moral as a society, or less moral, is a very difficult assessment to make, not least as we would have to agree what being moral is. If you judge it solely by reference to Biblical teachings, I think you could make the case that increasing secularism in the UK is, by definition, making UK society less moral (i.e. in the sense that not worshipping God, or rejecting his commandments, is by definition not a moral path to follow).

But on more social issues, the arguments are more finely balanced to say the least, especially if we do not judge these by purely Biblical standards, which I think you were trying to avoid.

But it's not all doom and gloom.

Originally posted by Rank outsider
I would not be as gloomy.

Let's just take the example of schools, as you raised it. When I went to school, the following was true:

1) Corporal punishment was acceptable and a routine part of discipline.

2) Bullying was commonplace and went unchecked (sometimes teachers commented that kids 'just had to learn to deal with it' and that those tha ...[text shortened]... ic moral values was therefore more 'normal' and accepted in the past than it is today.

But why are these "structured campaigns" now in affect? Has the problem become worse or is it still at the same level it's always been?
I think if one looks at the videos that have become so popular of "bullying" that are being posted by the kids that seem to gang up and seemingly enjoy watching and then posting these attacks is something horrible and as a kid of the 60's and 70's nothing like this on the scale it is now ever existed. I'm not speaking of cell phones of course but of the amont and the acceptance that seems to be earth wide of things like these attacks.

Originally posted by galveston75
I think if one looks at the videos that have become so popular of "bullying" that are being posted by the kids that seem to gang up and seemingly enjoy watching and then posting these attacks is something horrible and as a kid of the 60's and 70's nothing like this on the scale it is now ever existed.

How many YouTube clips did you watch on the internet in the 60s and 70s?

Originally posted by FMF
How many YouTube clips did you watch on the internet in the 60s and 70s?

Lol. Come on. If I have to explain this to you just let me know.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
You think that because today we are more accepting of nudity than the Victorians this represents a 'degeneration of society due to a degrading of morals'?

Nudity is not the issue, past generations were perfectly willing to accept nudity in art,
pornography is something quite different from art unless of course your willing to state
that Titian's Venus of Urbino is a renaissance page three girl.

Originally posted by galveston75
Lol. Come on. If I have to explain this to you just let me know.

Have you ever seen the film 'Lord of the Flies' kids have probably always bullied other kids, they should not do it, but to make out it is something new is a stretch.

Maybe the fact that they are using modern tech is as much responsible for society's discomfort rather than it being more common per se.

my school was a secondary modern dump of a school that could not teach a bird to lay eggs but they literally did not 'spare the rod'
and i can honestly say that my kids were much better behaved in their corporal punishment free school than their father who got the cane on a regular basis.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Nudity is not the issue, past generations were perfectly willing to accept nudity in art,
pornography is something quite different from art unless of course your willing to state
that Titian's Venus of Urbino is a renaissance page three girl.

Pornography has been in existence for a few thousand years, unless you want to make a case that Roman artifacts depicting a woman having sex with two men simultaneously is 'art'?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Pornography has been in existence for a few thousand years, unless you want to make a case that Roman artifacts depicting a woman having sex with two men simultaneously is 'art'?

No one here is saying these things have not always existed have we? Then why these comments? Do you really not think we don't know that?
So since that is not what we are saying, it must be that it has become more and more accepted and not looked on by as many as being something bad or immoral as it has been.
Many historians have made the obsevation that the lack of morals on many levels is what destroyed the Roman Empire. Why is that??????????
If they had lived by the words of Jesus as in "love thy neighbor" do you think Rome would have lasted a little longer, maybe??????????

Originally posted by galveston75
No one here is saying these things have not always existed have we? Then why these comments? Do you really not think we don't know that?
So since that is not what we are saying, it must be that it has become more and more accepted and not looked on by as many as being something bad or immoral as it has been.
Many historians have made the obsevation t ...[text shortened]... s in "love thy neighbor" do you think Rome would have lasted a little longer, maybe??????????

Sorry, but your post has no bearing on what Rob and i were discussing.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Pornography has been in existence for a few thousand years, unless you want to make a case that Roman artifacts depicting a woman having sex with two men simultaneously is 'art'?

I see, are you willing to state that thirty percent of the information the Romans
produced and read was dedicated to pornographic literature, for if i am not mistaken,
sonhouse posted a link detailing that 30 percent of internet traffic is from pornographic
sites and servers. I think we can safely conclude that never before has pornographic
literature been more readily accessible and apparently acceptable as ever before.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I see, are you willing to state that thirty percent of the information the Romans
produced and read was dedicated to pornographic literature, for if i am not mistaken,
sonhouse posted a link detailing that 30 percent of internet traffic is from pornographic
sites and servers. I think we can safely conclude that never before has pornographic
literature been more readily accessible and apparently acceptable as ever before.

I can guarantee you that if the Romans had the technology we have today they would be making pornographic films and watching films online just as we do. The fact is that pornography, in some form of another, has existed for thousands of years in our culture.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Sorry, but your post has no bearing on what Rob and i were discussing.

Lol. Right.