1. SubscriberSuzianne
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    14 Jun '17 12:12
    What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.

    What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written:

    “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.” Reveal Hidden Content
    [See Psalm 51:4]


    But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!

    What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. As it is written:

    “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”Reveal Hidden Content
    [See Psalms 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Eccles. 7:20]


    “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.”Reveal Hidden Content
    [See Psalms 5:9]


    “The poison of vipers is on their lips.”Reveal Hidden Content
    [See Psalms 140:3]


    “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”Reveal Hidden Content
    [See Psalms 10:7]


    “Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know.”Reveal Hidden Content
    [See Isaiah 59:7,8]


    “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”Reveal Hidden Content
    [See Psalms 36:1]


    Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

    But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Reveal Hidden Content
    [Or through the faithfulness of]
    Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement Reveal Hidden Content
    [Referring to the atonement cover on the ark of the covenant - See Lev. 16:15,16]
    , through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

    Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.




    -- Romans 3, NIV, lifted from BlueLetterBible.org, presented without verse numbers, in paragraph form, for conversational affect -- Suzianne
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    14 Jun '17 12:23
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.

    What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written:

    “So that you ...[text shortened]... g[/i], presented without verse numbers, in paragraph form, for conversational affect -- Suzianne
    Romans 3:3,4
    For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
  3. SubscriberSuzianne
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    14 Jun '17 12:27
    Originally posted by josephw
    Romans 3:3,4
    For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    This is Romans 8:3,4
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    14 Jun '17 12:30
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Romans 3, NIV, lifted from BlueLetterBible.org, presented without verse numbers, in paragraph form, for conversational affect -- Suzianne
    Nicely presented thanks.

    Can I ask what conversation it is you want to drive with this?
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    14 Jun '17 12:49
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    This is Romans [b]8:3,4[/b]
    Based on chapter three.

    Perhaps if you had stated the purpose of your OP I would have directed a comment toward that. Even though I think I did.
  6. SubscriberSuzianne
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    14 Jun '17 13:05
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Nicely presented thanks.

    Can I ask what conversation it is you want to drive with this?
    I did not misspell effect. I meant affect.

    I'm not trying to drive any conversation. I merely present this as "the other side of the story" to those who have mischaracterized many sayings of Paul, in Romans specifically.

    We have those who maintain that all Christians only perform "mouth worship", and that "works" is the only true measure of those who "follow Christ". Paul understands that faith IS important, and does justify man to God. While those who follow Christ may indeed "do works" through the Holy Spirit, these other people also seem to take great pleasure in running Christians down as "mouth worshippers" only, when they have ZERO proof this is so. The vast (and I mean vast) majority of Christians I know indeed do "works", and are most definitely not "mouth worshippers only". They back up their faith with action. I suspect the same is true of the majority of Christians who post in this forum, and yet, some would prefer to denigrate, belittle and defame their fellow Christians for no reason, following only their own agenda, in contradiction of Christ's own commandments on how to treat their Christian brothers, only to "puff up" their own feelings of "righteousness". This is senseless and unjust.

    This chapter also tries to clarify Romans 2:14-15, which has led some atheists here (and the same Christians who habitually run other Christians here down) to claim that they are just as "righteous" as Christians.

    So I consider Romans 3 to be a kind of "corrective" chapter for those who get the wrong idea when they read Romans 2. "Driving a conversation"? If it does, that's great, but that is not my first aim. I think the few "self-righteous" Christians here need to take a step back and take a look at their behavior towards other Christians in this forum and ask themselves if that's necessary to their agenda, and if it is, perhaps they need a new agenda, because what they're doing is not following the will of God, but their own will.

    "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven..."
  7. SubscriberSuzianne
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    14 Jun '17 13:18
    Originally posted by josephw
    Based on chapter three.

    Perhaps if you had stated the purpose of your OP I would have directed a comment toward that. Even though I think I did.
    Romans does continue to clarify points made in previous chapters. Your quote is timely.

    As I said, some people have accused me of not presenting scripture I agree with which showcases why I believe as I do. I believe this chapter covers, in simple enough language (even though I do prefer the KJV), a counter to the twisted language some in this forum have been throwing around lately, Christians blatantly judging their own Christian brothers over points of doctrine, which, while correct on the surface, also results in a needless attacking of nearly all Christians in this forum as "mouth worshippers" and other ridiculous name-calling, with zero evidence that what they claim is true. Add to this the completely baseless and ridiculous claim that even atheists will inherit the kingdom of God even before Christians here who THEY CLAIM do not follow Christ. These persons are clearly not following the will of God, because they sin through bearing false witness upon their brothers, and for no reason other than self-aggrandizement. They count this as "righteousness" when it is nothing but "self-righteousness".
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    14 Jun '17 13:53
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Romans does continue to clarify points made in previous chapters. Your quote is timely.

    As I said, some people have accused me of not presenting scripture I agree with which showcases why I believe as I do. I believe this chapter covers, in simple enough language (even though I do prefer the KJV), a counter to the twisted language some in this forum ha ...[text shortened]... aggrandizement. They count this as "righteousness" when it is nothing but "self-righteousness".
    NASB77 • NASB95 • Strong's
    ◄ 1 Corinthians 5 ►
    New American Standard Bible
    Immorality Rebuked

    1It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. 2You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
    3For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    6Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? 7Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

    9I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
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    14 Jun '17 14:00
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    I did not misspell effect. I meant affect.

    I'm not trying to drive any conversation. I merely present this as "the other side of the story" to those who have mischaracterized many sayings of Paul, in Romans specifically.

    We have those who maintain that all Christians only perform "mouth worship", and that "works" is the only true measure of t ...[text shortened]... t their own will.

    "Thy kingdom come, [b]thy
    will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven..."[/b]
    Very well put!
  10. Standard memberKellyJay
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    14 Jun '17 14:06
    Originally posted by leunammi
    Very well put!
    So far everyone's and I am not excluding any to date, so all has been added well to this thread.
  11. SubscriberFMF
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    14 Jun '17 14:35
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    So far everyone's and I am not excluding any to date, so all has been added well to this thread.
    Did some chewed banana come out of your nose in your haste to say this? 😛
  12. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    14 Jun '17 14:382 edits
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    So far everyone's and I am not excluding any to date, so all has been added well to this thread.
    Indeed. But then this thread has so far been rather thin on Gentiles.

    I know some theists would like to denigrate the righteousness of non-believers and elevate their own, but not only is this erroneous, it isn't even biblical.

    "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness." (Matthew 7:21-23)
  13. Standard memberdj2becker
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    14 Jun '17 14:53
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    Indeed. But then this thread has so far been rather thin on Gentiles.

    I know some theists would like to denigrate the righteousness of non-believers and elevate their own, but not only is this erroneous, it isn't even biblical.

    "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Fath ...[text shortened]... re to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness." (Matthew 7:21-23)
    2 Corinthians 3:6

    "He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."
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    14 Jun '17 14:57
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    Indeed. But then this thread has so far been rather thin on Gentiles.

    I know some theists would like to denigrate the righteousness of non-believers and elevate their own, but not only is this erroneous, it isn't even biblical.

    "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Fath ...[text shortened]... re to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness." (Matthew 7:21-23)
    So those who reject the law are bound for hell. Sin is sin, too bad Jesus says sin still exists amd those who practice it are bound for hell. It means you can't simply will your way to heaven.
  15. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    14 Jun '17 15:07
    Originally posted by Eladar
    So those who reject the law are bound for hell. Sin is sin, too bad Jesus says sin still exists amd those who practice it are bound for hell. It means you can't simply will your way to heaven.
    So, i'm ignoring any of your posts that begin with 'so.'
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