Paul Washer has a message for Christians

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Not true. It is not "channeling", and I am not saying it is a "special" gift either. All Christians if instructed properly can do the same. It is what I was taught and believe is the proper use of the manefestations of the spirit. If you are really interested I am willing to continue, but only as long as you are sincere about it. Here is a link about pro ...[text shortened]... of tongues...

http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=463

The place where I struggle to understand is this: You wrote the following --

'Know for a truth and a certainty that the Lord your God has loved you from the foundations of the world. He has called you to a mighty calling. Be bold and shine as lights in this world, Fear not, for He walks with you all the days of your lives.'

You said this could be an example of prophesying (forthtelling kind).

Now, let's say an atheist said this:

God has blessed His children with prophets and testimony. He has guided them all the days of
their lives. He raises them up to be leaders of men, just and righteous, forgiving and generous.
With God's guidance, they will usher in an era of tranquility and plenty.

Is this prophesying?

Nemesio

Originally posted by checkbaiter
If you are really interested I am willing to continue, but only as long as you are sincere about it.

You're the sensitive one, remember? I don't pursue anything that I'm not interested in. I like to learn,
but questioning things and challenging things is part of how I learn. If you're not interested in being
challenged, then just throw in the towel now. This is sincerely how I am. I'm sorry if you don't like
it, but no one is forcing you to talk about prophesying.

Frankly, the idea that Jaywill, ephiphineas, whodey and knightmeister wither under the slightest of logical
pressure is very telling to me. A person who hasn't thought critically about their faith is a person with
an immature faith, I believe. But being immature is easier than being mature, and I'm sure that's
why they dodge or ignore me.

If you don't want to be questioned, then just do what they do and establish an idea and then run when
people question it. Or don't post at all. But don't insist that people like me who find such claims to
be dubious to sit back and say, 'Well, that really makes sense,' when it doesn't to us. I don't tell
you how to be and I think it's unfair for you to instruct me how to receive your threads.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
You're the sensitive one, remember? I don't pursue anything that I'm not interested in. I like to learn,
but questioning things and challenging things is part of how I learn. If you're not interested in being
challenged, then just throw in the towel now. This is sincerely how I am. I'm sorry if you don't like
it, but no one is forcing you to talk abo ...[text shortened]... hink it's unfair for you to instruct me how to receive your threads.

Nemesio

Fair enough..

Originally posted by Nemesio
The place where I struggle to understand is this: You wrote the following --

'Know for a truth and a certainty that the Lord your God has loved you from the foundations of the world. He has called you to a mighty calling. Be bold and shine as lights in this world, Fear not, for He walks with you all the days of your lives.'

You said this could ...[text shortened]... they will usher in an era of tranquility and plenty.[/i]

Is this prophesying?

Nemesio

I suppose...but you confuse me. An atheist could not prophesy, it could sound like it, but it would not be genuine. Nor would it say anything like this, because it is not in harmony with His word. Remember, a prophesy is always one or more of the following, comfort, exhortation or edification. The bible says we live in a crooked and perverse world. As long as satan is the god of this world, there can be no peace nor tranquility. A child of God can be at peace, but not the world.
Furthermore, a false prophesy would be picked by one or more believers, because the Lord would simply inform them. One of the manefestations is discerning of spirits. And if not, then we can always observe the speaker. What kind of fruit does he bear? Jesus said we would know one another by our fruit. (Fruit of the spirit: Love, Joy,Peace, Gentleness, etc.)

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I suppose...but you confuse me. An atheist could not prophesy, it could sound like it, but it would not be genuine. Nor would it say anything like this, because it is not in harmony with His word. Remember, a prophesy is always one or more of the following, comfort, exhortation or edification. The bible says we live in a crooked and perverse world. As lo ...[text shortened]... we would know one another by our fruit. (Fruit of the spirit: Love, Joy,Peace, Gentleness, etc.)

Do you attend an Assemblies of God church by any chance?

Not a trick question, or anything...I'm just curious.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I suppose...but you confuse me.

I'm not trying to confuse you, but I find the concept confusing. When I find things confusing, I ask
questions.

An atheist could not prophesy, it could sound like it, but it would not be genuine.

So, you cannot tell if a particular text is genuine prophesying (unless it says something contrary to
God's Word)? I mean, if I asked five Christians and five atheists to prophesy or imitate prophesying,
and didn't tell you who said what, you wouldn't be able to distinguish between them unless they goof
up like I did and say things contrary to Scripture?

Am I correct in this?

Nemesio

Originally posted by TheSkipper
Do you attend an Assemblies of God church by any chance?

Not a trick question, or anything...I'm just curious.

No. I do not attend any denominational churches. Visit from time to time but have trouble with their doctrine. I attend a home type fellowship. There are many in peoples homes. We are affiliated with Grace Ministry USA in Chicago.

http://www.graceministryusa.org/

Originally posted by Nemesio
Originally posted by checkbaiter
[b]I suppose...but you confuse me.

I'm not trying to confuse you, but I find the concept confusing. When I find things confusing, I ask
questions.

An atheist could not prophesy, it could sound like it, but it would not be genuine.

So, you cannot tell if a particular text is genuine prophesying (u ...[text shortened]... oof
up like I did and say things contrary to Scripture?

Am I correct in this?

Nemesio[/b]

I would say correct. I have been hoodwinked before. But if I am paying close attention, the Lord will reveal this in some fashion.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I would say correct. I have been hoodwinked before. But if I am paying close attention, the Lord will reveal this in some fashion.

I'm pretty sure the BWA would be willing to sponsor a blind test implementing the experiment that Nemesio described. Are you interested in demonstrating your claim? I'm sure we can round up five Christians and five atheists. We could even make it a competition to see who can most accurately partition the anonymous samples, likely an indicative metric of possession of the discerning of spirits manifestation that you cited.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
No. I do not attend any denominational churches. Visit from time to time but have trouble with their doctrine. I attend a home type fellowship. There are many in peoples homes. We are affiliated with Grace Ministry USA in Chicago.

http://www.graceministryusa.org/

Cool. As an athiest I obviously don't agree with much of what you believe, but I will say that when I was a Christian the best aspect of Church was a thing my church did called "small groups". Basically a collection of 10-20 people from the church would meet in different people's homes one night a week. Many of the small groups had different themes or areas of focus...I really liked it.

Come to think of it, the truly 'best' part of church was probably the monthly pancake breakfast, but the small group was certainly second...however distant.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
I'm pretty sure the BWA would be willing to sponsor a blind test implementing the experiment that Nemesio described. Are you interested in demonstrating your claim? I'm sure we can round up five Christians and five atheists. We could even make it a competition to see who can most accurately partition the anonymous samples, likely an indicative metric of possession of the discerning of spirits manifestation that you cited.

Luke 4:12
12 And Jesus answered and said to him, "It has been said, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'"
(NKJ)

Originally posted by TheSkipper
Cool. As an athiest I obviously don't agree with much of what you believe, but I will say that when I was a Christian the best aspect of Church was a thing my church did called "small groups". Basically a collection of 10-20 people from the church would meet in different people's homes one night a week. Many of the small groups had different themes or the monthly pancake breakfast, but the small group was certainly second...however distant.

I am familiar with the small group setting. The difference is we do not have a local church building. I am in upstate NY and we are the only fellowship in our area. But there are many nationwide. The pastor in Chicago visits from time to time.
And yes, we do have great snacks....

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Luke 4:12
12 And Jesus answered and said to him, "It has been said, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'"
(NKJ)

Why would demonstrating your gift tempt God, and what would it tempt him to do?

Originally posted by Nemesio
You're the sensitive one, remember? I don't pursue anything that I'm not interested in. I like to learn,
but questioning things and challenging things is part of how I learn. If you're not interested in being
challenged, then just throw in the towel now. This is sincerely how I am. I'm sorry if you don't like
it, but no one is forcing you to talk abo ...[text shortened]... hink it's unfair for you to instruct me how to receive your threads.

Nemesio

Give me a break, Nemesio. Just because you're more intelligent than almost everyone on this forum doesn't mean jack. You believe one way, someone else believes another way. Period. Just because that person can't match wits with you doesn't necessarily mean their faith is immature and yours is not.

Very often the reason people disengage from arguing with you has nothing to do with refusing to think critically about their beliefs. Because it's not true that you are just here to learn. When you engage someone you don't do so with any objectivity because right from the start you are already seeking to establish your beliefs as superior, and with the intent to ridicule.

In polite society such confrontations rarely occur, so we don't often get to feel that uncomfortable silence when a person no longer feels welcome and suddenly would rather be anywhere else. From your end you say the other person 'withers' and therefore their faith is immature and they haven't thought critically about their beliefs. No, more often than not it's simply not worth arguing over matters of faith to the nth degree you like to bring it to. Why? Because it's one thing to share a belief, it is quite another to be forced to justify it to someone, especially when the person you are trying to justify it to is much smarter than you.

Not wishing to continue justifying a belief doesn't necessarily indicate a person has not thought critically about that belief, as you claim, nor that a person's faith is immature. Often it is just the sudden dawning of the happy truth that what you believe in doesn't need to be defended.

People agree to disagree, and that's one thing, but you seem not to be satisfied until others agree to agree with you, and if you cannot accomplish that then you simply ridicule and taunt. Agreeing to disagree at least allows people to discuss opposing views amicably, but with you that isn't possible; everything is personal with you.

That Checkbaiter doesn't want to share with you his beliefs without some assurance that you aren't going to berate, taunt, belittle or ridicule him should tell you something. He's not being unfair by asking that, in fact it's a perfectly understandable request. Frankly, your supposed indignation is laughable.

Epiphinehas

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Why would demonstrating your gift tempt God, and what would it tempt him to do?

He's saying that your request is not God-ordained.