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@philokalia saidSeems you've completely missed the point again.
Yes, that does sound right! The Gospel is very important.
Thanks for sharing that.
I'll make one last attempt:
Jesus emphasized the importance of HIS words time and time again:
"If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine" John 8
"the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life." John 6
"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day." John 12
"He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me. These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you." John 14
""For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice." John 18
Unless people understand His word, they cannot keep and abide in His word no less believe and follow His word. They cannot "listen to [His] voice"
Take your time.
Try to understand what Jesus is saying in bold above and the implications thereof.
Keep that in mind as you read the last paragraph.
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"And I do not ask concerning these only, but concerning those also who believe into Me through their word." (John 17:20)
Acts shows that the first local church, continued in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles.
"And they continued steadfastly in the teaching and the fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and the prayers." (Acts 2:42)
ThinkOfOne wants to break the connection between selective favorite ["red letter"] words of his and "the teaching and fellowship of the [twelve] apostles."
If you do not agree with his establishment of his own teaching, it is a matter of you not being able to READ too well. Ie. Go back and READ his selective red letters.
Improved reading comprehension, he argues, will bring you around to his side. His side is ie. "This is what Jesus really meant when He walked the earth."
You will end up with a Christ who is not the Son of God, not God incarnate, did not accomplish redemption, did not resurrect from the dead, and is not available and living today. And I wager that the concealed clincher is even that there is no God.
Thanklfully, the early church continued STEADFASTLY in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in celebrating the Lord's supper, and in prayers touching God themselves.
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Take your time.
Try to understand what Jesus is saying in bold above and the implications thereof.
Keep that in mind as you read the last paragraph.
We ought also to take time to consider Christ's mighty petition to His Father about His disciples.
"I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to me." (17:6)
ToO do you have confidence that Matthew, John, Peter were the Father's and He gave them to the Son?
"Now they have come to know that all that You have given Me is from You. For the words which You gave Me I have given to them, and they received them and knew truly that I came forth from You,
and they have believed that You sent Me." (v.8)
So why do you think the twelve disciples were "loose canons" distorting the words Christ gave to them, irresponsibly? You imply what Jesus is about when He walked the earth, YOU have the more authoritative interpretation.
You don't have to reply to me publically ToO. Think about it though.
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Unless people understand His word, they cannot keep and abide in His word no less believe and follow His word. They cannot "listen to [His] voice"
Listen to Christ's words concerning His apostles.
"I ask concerning them; I do not ask concerning the world, but concerning those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours." (John 17:9)
He sets aside "the world" here. He is not asking concerning the world but focusing especially on those men whom the Father has given Him.
He kept them in the Father. None were lost except Judas.
"When I was with them, I kept them in Your name, which You have given to Me, and I guarded them; and not one of them perished, except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled." (v.12)
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ToO,
Jesus says He kept them and guarded them. But you have no confidence in their testimony. For what Jesus was about "while He walked the earth" the world has to consult your humanist take on how to follow Jesus.
But these recorders and faithful apostles are not of the world like Jesus was not of the world. And like Jesus hatred towards them also will ferment.
"I have given them Your word, and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world even as I am not of the world." (v.14)
ToO, are you hatefully opposing the Apostles John, Matthew, Peter ?
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI think he was Saul at that point. He was one of the crooked murderous Pharisees, persecuting the Christians and trying to force them to blaspheme so that he could execute them.
'And as I punished them often in all the synagogues, I tried to force them to blaspheme; and being furiously enraged at them, I kept pursuing them even to foreign cities.' (Acts 26:11)
Should a man of God being trying to force people to blaspheme?!
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'And as I punished them often in all the synagogues, I tried to force them to blaspheme; and being furiously enraged at them, I kept pursuing them even to foreign cities.' (Acts 26:11)
Should a man of God being trying to force people to blaspheme?!
1.) This is Paul's activity before he became a "man of God".
2.) Paul, as a strict Pharisee, would not blaspheme Yahweh, He would never blaspheme Jehovah God as he understood God in the Torah. The fact that he made Christians speak ill of Jesus indicates that he finally understands that Jesus Christ is God.
God also took the worst Christ opposer, saved him, and made him a model ( a pattern) for ALL those who afterwards should trust Christ, seeing God's great mercy.
[I] "Who formerly was a blasphemer and a persecutor and an insulting person; but I was shown mercy because, being ignorant, I acted in unbelief.
...
But because of this I was shown mercy, that in me, the foremost, Jesus Christ might display all His long-suffering for a pattern to those who are to believe on Him unto eternal life." (See 1 Timothy 1:13-16)
Paul, when he was Saul, blasphemed Christ and made Christians under his persecution blaspheme Christ.
This was a Jewish matter. And he didn't go into pagan places and have authority to make the pagans blaspheme their idols. That was outside of his jurisdiction and his concern.
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I think he was Saul at that point. He was one of the crooked murderous Pharisees, persecuting the Christians and trying to force them to blaspheme so that he could execute them.
Right, that he was Saul doing this before his conversion.
Wrong, that he wanted them to blaspheme Yahweh so that he could have reason to execute them.
He was forcing them to deny that Jesus was the Son of God. That was the blasphemy he wanted to force on them.
@thinkofone saidSo, do you think that someone who hasn't absolutely, totally imbibed and practiced a high level of repentance will not enter the Kingdom of God?
Seems you've completely missed the point again.
I'll make one last attempt:
[quote]Jesus emphasized the importance of HIS words time and time again:
"If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine" John 8
"the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life." John 6
"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who ...[text shortened]... aying in bold above and the implications thereof.
Keep that in mind as you read the last paragraph.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidThaaat's rriiiightttttt....
'And as I punished them often in all the synagogues, I tried to force them to blaspheme; and being furiously enraged at them, I kept pursuing them even to foreign cities.' (Acts 26:11)
Should a man of God being trying to force people to blaspheme?!
9 “I too was convinced that I ought to do all that was possible to oppose the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 And that is just what I did in Jerusalem. On the authority of the chief priests I put many of the Lord’s people in prison, and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them. 11 Many a time I went from one synagogue to another to have them punished, and I tried to force them to blaspheme. I was so obsessed with persecuting them that I even hunted them down in foreign cities.
12 “On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13 About noon, King Agrippa, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,[a] ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’
15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’
“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
19 “So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven. 20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds. 21 That is why some Jews seized me in the temple courts and tried to kill me. 22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
(Acts 26)
@Philokalia
I was looking for the comment you made about the grace of God being our only way of overcoming the sin nature, or some such comment.
I wanted to continue on that line.
Was it in this thread ?
@philokalia saidCan you elaborate on "absolutely, totally imbibed and practiced a high level of repentance"? Not sure what you have in mind.
So, do you think that someone who hasn't absolutely, totally imbibed and practiced a high level of repentance will not enter the Kingdom of God?
What is the relationship between what I posted and your question? No idea how you got there from what I posted.