Paul's value?

@philokalia said
To repent on a high level, to really make moral progress, it requires defeating self-esteem and totally loving God and one's neighbor in complete humility.

To get to this level, it requires great renunciation and active practice.

It also generally requires extensive familiarity with sacred wisdom and sustained efforts.

St. Maximos the Confessor would say that t ...[text shortened]... at makes up for all of our shortcomings in regard to not practicing the word to a high level.

You seem to be saying that there are basically two options available.

Option A is true repentance. This is very difficult and therefore this option is taken by very few. While many may strive, few will be able.

Option B is grace. This is much easier and therefore this option is taken by many.

Do I understand you correctly?

@thinkofone said
You seem to be saying that there are basically two options available.

Option A is true repentance. This is very difficult and therefore this option is taken by very few. While many may strive, few will be able.

Option B is grace. This is much easier and therefore this option is taken by many.

Do I understand you correctly?

Mostly, yes, but I would also say that, through secular means and without prayer, A is impossible. Both paths require the grace of God.

I think i would more state it as...

Some people are very good at implementing the word of God because they have been given many gifts.

Other people aren't as good, and are easily distracted or dull or just don't have the fortitude, and they cannot achieve what others do, but they can still be saved by grace. Just as such, a really bad chess player who loves the game can be seen as having the same value as a player who is a 2100 ELO in the sense that they both are fans of the game and perhaps neither particularly has contributed much to it, but have both fulfilled something through... drawing off of the inexhaustible beauty of chess.

@philokalia said
Mostly, yes, but I would also say that, through secular means and without prayer, A is impossible. Both paths require the grace of God.

I think i would more state it as...

Some people are very good at implementing the word of God because they have been given many gifts.

Other people aren't as good, and are easily distracted or dull or just don't have the fortit ...[text shortened]... o it, but have both fulfilled something through... drawing off of the inexhaustible beauty of chess.

Regarding Option A and Option B, Jesus addressed it in the following:
Matthew 7
13“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Luke 13
23And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them, 24“Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25“Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’

Some people are very good at implementing the word of God because they have been given many gifts.

Other people aren't as good, and are easily distracted or dull or just don't have the fortitude, and they cannot achieve what others do...

Regarding this, Jesus addressed it in the following:
Matthew 13
11Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12“For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.
18“Hear then the parable of the sower. 19“When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. 20“The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21yet he has no firm root in himself, but is onlytemporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away. 22“And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 23“And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”

David Koresh.

No different than Paul.

Why should we believe his story?

Someone, show me the Apostle Paul teaches differently from Christ.

Give me your three most striking examples.

If you can't make it to three then find me one example.

@sonship said
Someone, show me the Apostle Paul teaches differently from Christ.

Give me your three most striking examples.

If you can't make it to three then find me one example.

Paul preached the same doctrine as Christ. It is YOUR biased and partial interpretation of Paul that makes it appear that Paul taught a different doctrine.

The bottom line for all correct doctrines taught by Jesus and the Apostles is this:
There is no inheritance in the Kingdom of God for anyone who lives evil and sinful lives

Bump the Paul verses Christ group - The "Jesus we like, Paul messed it all up" crowd -

Someone, show me the Apostle Paul teaches differently from Christ.

Give me your three most striking examples.

If you can't make it to three then find me one example.

Bump the Paul verses Christ group - The "Jesus we like, Paul messed it all up" crowd -

Someone, show me the Apostle Paul teaches differently from Christ.

Give me your three most striking examples.

If you can't make it to three then find me one example.

@thinkofone said
Regarding Option A and Option B, Jesus addressed it in the following:
Matthew 7
13“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Luke 13
23And someone said to Him, “Lord, are th ...[text shortened]... tands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”

The story is elaborated more in Luke 12:

42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

There's a whole category of the ignorant (or incapable) that are held to a lesser standard.

@Philokalia

There's a whole category of the ignorant (or incapable) that are held to a lesser standard.

That is right. And there is also a catagory of because YOU showed mercy to others YOU (generic you) will be shown some mercy,

And "Because YOU were strict and exacting towards others with no mercy, God will be strict and exacting towards YOU now as you did others."

James 2:13

New American Standard Bible
For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

New King James Version
For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

King James Bible
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

This is right -- we must always show mercy and be non-jdugmental because we cannot know the heart of others.

Judge not lest ye be judged is not about dismissing sin that has been proven to be sin, but it is about always forgiving and never jumping to a conclusion.

St. Paul said that there is no greater sinner than I, and this is something that we must always recognize. We should make excuses for the sins of others, and hodl oruselves entirely accountable for our own.

Everything that is good in me is unearned grace from God; and everything that is bad in others is, as far as I know, just as an unearned and undeserved state for that person, occurring due to issues beyond their means. In the end, only God can determine who knew what, and whose intentions were good, and who shall be given mercy.

The biggest hint that we have is the special love Christ had for children and his emphasis that we must believe like children: purity in our attentions, the desire only for good and good for others without selfish gain, and empathetic joy, are very high expressions we should strive for.

@philokalia said
The story is elaborated more in Luke 12:

[quote]42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 ...[text shortened]... uote]

There's a whole category of the ignorant (or incapable) that are held to a lesser standard.

You've failed to take into account the bottom line in the verses I cited:
"for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction"
"He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from."
"And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful."

Following is an explanation of what happens to the "unfruitful":
John 15
5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Not only that, but you've also failed to take into account the bottom line in the verses YOU cited:
"He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers."

You've also failed to take into account the bottom line in verses such as the following:
Matthew 25
’ 29“For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30“Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 19
26“I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 27“But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence.”

Right, all of that can be true -- that the path to destruction is wide -- and that there are many who still are saved.

What, are you suggesting that only the Christians who have deeply internalized the Gospel and exercise it in their daily life, who live very devoutly, will go to heaven, and those that have been lagging behind are doomed to hell?

I am just curious... What percent of self-identified Christians do you figure are actually going to go to hell because they are not meeting this very high bar?

I would briefly field this verses from ToO .. (briefly) but I think accurately.

You've failed to take into account the bottom line in the verses I cited:
"for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction"

Some eternally saved people will discover that the the way to destruction was wide and broad when -

If anyone's [Christian's] work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward,

If anyone's work is consumed, he will SUFFER LOSS, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:14,15)

Of course the lost will realize that the way to destruction is broad.
But also some saved yet as through fire will discover that as well.

More on ToO's comments:

"He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from."

This is said by Jesus to the those assuming familiarity with Him.
See Luke 13:22-29

This could include though some who "suffer loss" of reward and do not reign with Christ - left outside of the millennial kingdom.

"And there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth there when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you being cast outside." (v.28)

By submitting this passage does ThinkOfOne agree then that the exalted Christ will reign on the earth with the rewarded Old Testament patriarchs such as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

I doubt that he believes the passage. But anyway, some Christians who are eternally saved will be put to shame in "outer darkness" AWAY from the glory of the reigning King Christ, in the millennium.

That would conceivably include the believers of Paul's warning -

"If anyone's work is consumed, he will SUFFER LOSS, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:15)

ThinkOfOne should consider that after dedicating my life to teach about a dead Christ who once "walked the earth," he himself will one day meet the reigning Christ only to hear these words.

"I do not know where you are from."

Then ToO may say that he talked all about Him "while He walked the earth" but never believed or spoke of His redemption and resurrection in favor of a liberal humanistic model to imitate. He opposed the Gospel.