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Unless people understand His word, they cannot keep and abide in His word no less believe and follow His word. They cannot "listen to [His] voice"
One should not truncate His word and twist what is left and THEN exhort -
"Unless people understand His word, they cannot keep and abide in His word ... etc. "
If His word includes what you EXCLUDE and TEACH AGAINST and you put forth that heresy as His words, it is wrong then for you to claim
"Unless people understand His word, they cannot keep and abide in His word ... etc."
If His word means what you do not believe. And you try to force the words to uphold your unbelieving philsophy, it is wrong then for you to exhort -
Unless people understand His word, they cannot keep and abide in His word ... etc. "
@ThinkOfOne
I took some time to consider as you requested of someone.
Jesus emphasized the importance of HIS words time and time again:
"If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine" John 8
If Jesus did not rise from the dead and is not available, you cannot be a disciple of a Jesus who does not exist.
John (whom you do no trust) concludes chapter 20 about Thomas meeting the resurrected Christ and confessing Him to be his Lord and his God -
"But these have been written that you may believe that Jesus IS the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing, you may have life in His name." (20:31)
This is not just pious religious speech. To have the divine "life in His name" means to have Him. To have "life in His name" means Jesus comes INTO our spiritual being to give us Himself.
We should not take for granted the profound words - "life in His name".
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John says he wrote his gospel that we may believe and have life in His name.
The value of the other apostle, the Apostle Paul, is that he pioneered in this reality and spoke more of how these things can be.
"the last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45b)
Jesus put Himself in a form in which we can have divine life in His name. Believing that He is Lord, risen, and available He can impart Himself to our hearts as "life giving Spirit" giving God to us; giving Himself to us; giving us eternal life in His name.
The value of Paul is in seeing that this lie giving Spirit is Christ Himself in His form as "the Spirit".
"And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. " (2 Cor. 3:17)
It is the Spirit that gives life. The letter of even the NT apart from the Lord Spirit kills. The word of the NT coming with believing in the living Christ gives God's divine life to those who believe.
"Who has made us [the apostle] sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, ministers not of the letter but of the Spirit;
for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor. 3:6)
WHO is the Spirit that gives divine life? He is Jesus in another form -
"But the Lord is the Spirit" (v.17)
Paul's value is in his pioneering experience, his faithfulness, and his teaching and living what Jesus taught.
"For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your slaves for Jesus' sake." (4:5)
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@sonship saidI took some time to consider as you requested of someone.
@ThinkOfOne
I took some time to consider as you requested of someone.Jesus emphasized the importance of HIS words time and time again:
"If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine" John 8
If Jesus did not rise from the dead and is not available, you cannot be a disciple of a Jesus who does not exist.
John (whom you do ...[text shortened]... give us Himself.
We should not take for granted the profound words - "life in His name".
The point was to take the time to understand the sum total of what Jesus' words are actually saying in bold below AND the implications thereof (Not just pull out one of the verses and ignore what Jesus's words are saying there - which is what you did).
THEN to keep ALL of that in mind as you consider the last paragraph.
"If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine" John 8
"the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life." John 6
"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day." John 12
"He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me. These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you." John 14
""For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice." John 18
Unless people understand His word, they cannot keep and abide in His word no less believe and follow His word. They cannot "listen to [His] voice"
If Jesus did not rise from the dead and is not available, you cannot be a disciple of a Jesus who does not exist.
According to Jesus, His true disciples are those who ABIDE in His word. Read what Jesus' words actually say.
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The point was to take the time to understand the sum total of what Jesus' words are actually saying in bold below AND the implications thereof (Not just pull out one of the verses and ignore what Jesus's words are saying there - which is what you did).
THEN to keep ALL of that in mind as you consider the last paragraph.
Your version of the "sum total" is to arrive at your personal New Testament opposing philosophy.
ToO's bottom line Ie. " Jesus is dead and gone. Imitate Jesus. "
Abide in His word. Yes.
And Abide in Him Himself is also what He taught, not sentimentally but in literal actuality.
"In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." (John 14:20)
Abide in ME and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me." (John 15:4)
Your gospel is Ie. "I can accomplish a lot on my own. Jesus is gone. Great sentimentality is all we need to imitate Jesus."
Your "following" Jesus, your "abiding in" the word of Jesus is like a poodle standing on its hind legs to imitate a walking man.
He rose from the dead that miraculously men and women may abide in Him - in His available form as "life giving Spirit"
"the last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
This is what the NT is about. And this is what He promised:
"I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you. Yet a little while and the world beholds Me no longer, but you behold Me; because I live, you also shall live.
In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." (John 14:18-20)
@sonship saidWhy did you claim to take "some time to consider as [I] requested of someone" the quoted words spoken by Jesus? Not only had you not done so - you've once again not done so.
@ThinkOfOneThe point was to take the time to understand the sum total of what Jesus' words are actually saying in bold below AND the implications thereof (Not just pull out one of the verses and ignore what Jesus's words are saying there - which is what you did).
THEN to keep ALL of that in mind as you consider the last paragraph.
Your version of th ...[text shortened]... ay you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." (John 14:18-20) [/b] [/quote]
Your version of the "sum total" is to arrive at your personal New Testament opposing philosophy.
They are the words spoken by Jesus. You've repeatedly refused to HEAR Jesus' words.
@thinkofone saidHe is one of the Dispensationalists. The group of people who use the theory of dispensation to exclude the doctrine preached by Jesus [while he walked the earth], from their beliefs. Jesus's time has expired and its all Paul. I asked sonship in another thread about the 'faith without works is dead' statement by James. Apparently sonship does not place any value on James either. Its all Paul or nothing for him.
Why did you claim to take "some time to consider as [I] requested of someone" the quoted words spoken by Jesus? Not only had you not done so - you've once again not done so.
Your version of the "sum total" is to arrive at your personal New Testament opposing philosophy.
They are the words spoken by Jesus. You've repeatedly refused to HEAR Jesus' words.
@rajk999 saidYou'd think that he'd just say so instead of claiming to consider what the words of Jesus that I had quoted actually say when he obviously refuses to do so.
He is one of the Dispensationalists. The group of people who use the theory of dispensation to exclude the doctrine preached by Jesus [while he walked the earth], from their beliefs. Jesus's time has expired and its all Paul. I asked sonship in another thread about the 'faith without works is dead' statement by James. Apparently sonship does not place any value on James either. Its all Paul or nothing for him.
All of the Christians on this forum likewise repeatedly refuse to do so. And they do so in the most disingenuous ways possible.
John 8
43“Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45“But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. 46“Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? 47“He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
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They are the words spoken by Jesus. You've repeatedly refused to HEAR Jesus' words.
Can you tell me if you believe that Jesus was the Son of God and was raised from the dead?
Can you make your stand plain without slipping into a philosophical - relative - existentialist fog of obfuscation or without sending me to listen to Kierkegaard?
And don't try to send me off to argue with troll Rajk999. Of course I love the book of James and wouldn't like the New Testament to be without it.
The man lies and slanders.
In your next post see if you can make a CRYSTAL CLEAR confession of your belief in the deity of Christ and His being raised from the dead. And don't tell me once upon a time in a far off land you made it perfectly clear where you stood on that teaching.
Thanks
@sonship saidThis is your response?
@ThinkOfOneThey are the words spoken by Jesus. You've repeatedly refused to HEAR Jesus' words.
Can you tell me if you believe that Jesus was the Son of God and was raised from the dead?
Can you make your stand plain without slipping into a philosophical - relative - existentialist fog of obfuscation or without sending me to listen to Kierkegaard?
...[text shortened]... on a time in a far off land you made it perfectly clear where you stood on that teaching.
Thanks
You've completely ignored the points of my post and have gone off on a completely different tangent.
You've once again refused to address what the words of Jesus that I had quoted actually say.
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@ThinkOfOne
I addressed about 75% (at least 50% ) of your post.
And you have many tricks and gimmicks to AVOID having your opposition to most of the NT being exposed.
You have many clever maneuvers. I am beginning to think you were specifically trained to do so in a very liberal theological seminary, say like Union Theological, or somewhere else where an atheist can graduate with a Doctors of Divinity degree and secure a pastorship somewhere.
I could be wrong about that. But you're full of tricks to conceal subtle [edited] rejection of the New Testament in favor of your philosophy.
@sonship saidThe truth is that you haven't addressed the points at all.
@ThinkOfOne
I addressed about 75% (at least 50% ) of your post.
And you have many tricks and gimmicks to AVOID having your opposition to most of the NT being exposed.
You have many clever maneuvers. I am beginning to think you were specifically trained to do so in a very liberal theological seminary, say like Union Theological, or somewhere else where an Atheist ca ...[text shortened]... But are full of tricks to conceal brute rejection of the New Testament in favor of your philosophy.
"For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.” John 18
They are the words spoken by Jesus. You've repeatedly refused to HEAR Jesus' words. You don't hear His voice.
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The truth is that you haven't addressed the points at all.
NO, the truth is your "gospel" is of a dead Jesus.
And you haven't the forthrightness to just say so plainly upfront.
The truth is your "gospel" amounts to sentimentality about a Christ who is dead.
One of Paul's many values is that he warned of wolves not sparing the flock of true believers.
"I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. And from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things to draw away the disciples after them." (Acts 20:29,30)
@sonship saidI actually do not believe so and I would not be able to recollect where it was off hand. Sorry!
@Philokalia
I was looking for the comment you made about the grace of God being our only way of overcoming the sin nature, or some such comment.
I wanted to continue on that line.
Was it in this thread ?
@thinkofone saidTo repent on a high level, to really make moral progress, it requires defeating self-esteem and totally loving God and one's neighbor in complete humility.
Can you elaborate on "absolutely, totally imbibed and practiced a high level of repentance"? Not sure what you have in mind.
What is the relationship between what I posted and your question? No idea how you got there from what I posted.
To get to this level, it requires great renunciation and active practice.
It also generally requires extensive familiarity with sacred wisdom and sustained efforts.
St. Maximos the Confessor would say that this path actively involves destroying the conceptual images that you have of things and rebuilding them to make them morally good. He would say that it includes complete control of faculties and the likes... And, even then, you aren't perfect, right?
Compare this with your typical Christian -- they are good people, I am sure, and they are not idiots. Yet, who is really approaching this level regularly? Very few.
We are saved by grace -- grave that makes up for all of our shortcomings in regard to not practicing the word to a high level.