@philokalia saidOK, so you are squeamish about the word "torture". What is the moral purpose and justification for the punishment to be tormenting the person lacking the beliefs ~ after they die ~ in burning flames for eternity, in other words, to inflict the most intense physical agony possible?
This is one of the reasons why I do not think of it as torture.
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@philokalia saidI made the following suggestion to C3:
They say that real theological prayer comes through prayer. This is true. Through prayer, we gain understanding, wisdom, and insight into the meaning of the Bible.
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Faith does not come through dogma.
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The dogma is developed through the efforts and understanding of the great heroes of the Christian community who, through dedicating their life to prayer and study, ...[text shortened]... stead advancing a sort of social anarchy.
Anyone can say anything, then.
It's not advisable.
"Take the time to actually read and comprehend the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. The vast majority of Christians with whom I've spoken not only haven't taken the time to comprehend Jesus' gospel, they haven't even read all of it."
Your response:
"It's actually really, really hard to comprehend it, so I wouldn'tblame them."
I pointed out the following:
"Those who earnestly seek can comprehend it. The truth is that most can't be bothered.
Perhaps the most prevalent theme of what Jesus taught while He walked the Earth, is the importance of His word:
Understanding His word.
Not just understanding His word, but believing His word.
Not just believing His word, but following His word.
Not just following His word, but keeping His word.
Not just keeping His word, but abiding in His word.
Jesus goes on an on about it."
And you respond with this?
Even though Jesus repeatedly emphasized the importance of understanding, believing, following, keeping and abiding in His word, you have countered with what seems to boil down to the following:
You don't blame people for not having taken the time to comprehend His word because it's really difficult to comprehend and to do so would result in "basically destroying the authority of the Church and its traditions and instead advancing a sort of social anarchy".
Jesus emphasized the importance of HIS words time and time again:
"“If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine" John 8
"the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life." John 6
"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day." John 12
"“He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me. These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you." John 14
""For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice." John 18
Unless people understand His word, they cannot keep and abide in His word no less believe and follow His word. They cannot "listen to [His] voice". Instead they listen to the voices of others - which you are advocating.
@thinkofone saidWhy is it important to follow the words of Jesus?
I made the following suggestion to C3:
"Take the time to actually read and comprehend the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. The vast majority of Christians with whom I've spoken not only haven't taken the time to comprehend Jesus' gospel, they haven't even read all of it."
Your response:
"It's actually really, really hard to comprehend it, so I wouldn'tbla ...[text shortened]... not "listen to [His] voice". Instead they listen to the voices of others - which you are advocating.
You speak at length about why we should, but haven't specified why his words are worth following. Are there other people from history whose words we should be following, other intellectuals or gurus? Or are the words of Jesus unique in this regard, and if so, why?
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Perhaps the most prevalent theme of what Jesus taught while He walked the Earth, is the importance of His word:
Understanding His word.
You gave an eloquent battery of verses on the importance of the words of Jesus Christ. I didn't see anything about His prayer that men believe in Him through the word of those whom He sent.
"And I do not ask concerning these only, but concerning those also who believe into Me through their word." (John 17:20)
Did you catch that? "Believe into Me THROUGH THEIR WORD".
Don't you labor to undermine "their word" by only pointing selectively to the red letters, (which of course we have to trust is THEIR word of what Jesus taught).
And don't you rather point to yourself as the trustworthy interpreter usually CONTRARY to "their word" ?
@thinkofone saidYes, I do not believe it is my part to lecture people who I think have failed in understanding the Gospelor who haven't put forward that much effort. Of course, I encourage them, but it is foolish to think that it is the place of us to be hyper-judgmental about whether or not regular people are adeuately reading and understanding the Bible.
I made the following suggestion to C3:
"Take the time to actually read and comprehend the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. The vast majority of Christians with whom I've spoken not only haven't taken the time to comprehend Jesus' gospel, they haven't even read all of it."
Your response:
"It's actually really, really hard to comprehend it, so I wouldn'tbla ...[text shortened]... not "listen to [His] voice". Instead they listen to the voices of others - which you are advocating.
It is also very much on their Priests to be able to effectively communicate it to them or provide the means of their understanding.
Perhaps I have not been exposed to as many poor cases of this as you.
@philokalia saidSince you seem to have completely missed the point, the following excerpts get to the heart of the matter:
Yes, I do not believe it is my part to lecture people who I think have failed in understanding the Gospelor who haven't put forward that much effort. Of course, I encourage them, but it is foolish to think that it is the place of us to be hyper-judgmental about whether or not regular people are adeuately reading and understanding the Bible.
It is also very much on thei ...[text shortened]... ns of their understanding.
Perhaps I have not been exposed to as many poor cases of this as you.
Perhaps the most prevalent theme of what Jesus taught while He walked the Earth, is the importance of His word:
Understanding His word.
Not just understanding His word, but believing His word.
Not just believing His word, but following His word.
Not just following His word, but keeping His word.
Not just keeping His word, but abiding in His word.
Jesus goes on an on about it."
Jesus emphasized the importance of HIS words time and time again:
"“If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine" John 8
"the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life." John 6
"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day." John 12
"“He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me. These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you." John 14
""For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice." John 18
Unless people understand His word, they cannot keep and abide in His word no less believe and follow His word. They cannot "listen to [His] voice".