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Originally posted by Conrau KWell, you have to admit that you were arguing pretty much anything and everything like you are here.
Well, to be honest, I wasn't actually presenting low-down on Catholic theology. I was simply demonstrating that not all vices are equal. I found it quite staggering that you could not at any point concede this fact.
I don't think you have perspective at all. I ask who do you mean by the Catholic Church, you respond, the Catholic Church as a whole. You really make absolutely no sense.
Also, the question wasn't whether or not "all vices are equal", but what constitutes hypocrisy.
And finally, as to "the Catholic Church as a whole", that was regarding whether or not an organization can have a "character". You bizarrely kept asking "who is the referent?" when I said that the RCC exhibited "greed" . The answer was "the Catholic Church as a whole" just as an organization as a whole can have a "culture" or a corporation as a whole can be termed "greedy".
Whether or not you want to admit it, you seem to lose all sense regarding the RCC.
Originally posted by Conrau KWhat don't you understand about ex Catholics telling me to my face how they viewed the Pope? Were you there in the presence of those conversations? Did you have a hidden microphone listening to the conversations? Or maybe a spy satellite looking down and listening?
[b]And Conrau will dispute this and why I don't know since he does not believe in God anymore, but what he says Catholics believe may be what they are supposed to believe on paper but most Catholics believe the Pope is God or a representation of him on earth.
Yes, I have dealt with this claim three times now. Catholics do not believe that the Pope is ...[text shortened]... am very willing to defend their religion, or in fact any unjustly maligned religious group.[/b]
Do you know how incredibly foolish you sound telling me what I've heard and not heard in my life? My gosh you're so far out with your accusations is silly.
Or are you God and all knowing?
And for your information I have no reason to make this up. I have never lied once on this forum so are you now calling me a liar?
Originally posted by galveston75i thought there was only one infallible guy in the world. Maybe Conrau is in the running for the Papacy 🙂
What don't you understand about ex Catholics telling me to my face how they viewed the Pope? Were you there in the presence of those conversations? Did you have a hidden microphone listening to the conversations? Or maybe a spy satellite looking down and listening?
Do you know how incredibly foolish you sound telling me what I've heard and not heard in ...[text shortened]... eason to make this up. I have never lied once on this forum so are you now calling me a liar?
Originally posted by Conrau KHave you ever defended the JW's?
[b]And Conrau will dispute this and why I don't know since he does not believe in God anymore, but what he says Catholics believe may be what they are supposed to believe on paper but most Catholics believe the Pope is God or a representation of him on earth.
Yes, I have dealt with this claim three times now. Catholics do not believe that the Pope is ...[text shortened]... am very willing to defend their religion, or in fact any unjustly maligned religious group.[/b]
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWell, you have to admit that you were arguing pretty much anything and everything like you are here.
Well, you have to admit that you were arguing pretty much anything and everything like you are here.
Also, the question wasn't whether or not "all vices are equal", but what constitutes hypocrisy.
And finally, as to "the Catholic Church as a whole", that was regarding whether or not an organization can have a "character". You bizarrely kept asking " ...[text shortened]... ther or not you want to admit it, you seem to lose all sense regarding the RCC.
That would be because you were completely wrong.
Also, the question wasn't whether or not "all vices are equal", but what constitutes hypocrisy.
Yes it was. The question was whether it was hypocritical to preach more about homosexuality than about greed. If the principle is accepted that some vices are worse than others, I don't see how hypocrisy necessarily applies. And, anyway, the only reason why I brought the Catholic Church into this was because the Church distinguishes sins on a number of bases. But to be clear, the Catholic Church does condemn greed.
And finally, as to "the Catholic Church as a whole", that was regarding whether or not an organization can have a "character". You bizarrely kept asking "who is the referent?" when I said that the RCC exhibited "greed" . The answer was "the Catholic Church as a whole" just as an organization as a whole can have a "culture" or a corporation as a whole can be termed "greedy".
Sure. But surely when we say an organisation has a culture of greed, we do not mean the ground-workers, like cleaners or tea-ladies. The question is quite simply,who is the Catholic Church which you accuse of greed? Very few Catholics could lay claim to anything in the Vatican. Not even cardinals can claim much and the Pope would very strictly identify himself as a patron rather than owner. So I don't see how you could possibly say that the Catholic Church is greedy; I really don't know who is being talked about.
Whether or not you want to admit it, you seem to lose all sense regarding the RCC.
No; you completely lack sense. I remember only a few years ago you accused the Pope of ordering bishops to conceal sexual abuse crimes from authorities. Even when I furnished you with the relevant document and referred you to the expert commentary of a canon lawyer (who, mind you, was a layman, not a priest), you dismissed it saying 'Can you really trust anything from the Catholic Church?' I will also add that the legal case you cited has since collapsed.
Now I have in the past criticised the Church. You however have continually proven yourself unable to rise above your petty bigotry. I am not sure why you feel the need at the moment to impose yourself on this discussion and play moral judge. I wish you would stop that. It's just like a while ago when you basically said "Your arguments do not matter because you are just a college kid and are just arguing for the sake of it.' Please stop second guessing my motivations. Don't play mind-reader. If you think I am biased in favour in the Church, fine. Argue the point but don't carry out this idiotic character assassination.
Originally posted by galveston75What don't you understand about ex Catholics telling me to my face how they viewed the Pope? Were you there in the presence of those conversations?
What don't you understand about ex Catholics telling me to my face how they viewed the Pope? Were you there in the presence of those conversations? Did you have a hidden microphone listening to the conversations? Or maybe a spy satellite looking down and listening?
Do you know how incredibly foolish you sound telling me what I've heard and not heard in ...[text shortened]... eason to make this up. I have never lied once on this forum so are you now calling me a liar?
I have offered you several explanations for this. Perhaps they were not instructed properly in their faith. Perhaps they told you in the light of their conversion when they were unlikely to have an objective view of their faith. Perhaps you never met these people and are lying. All are very plausible. Nonetheless, they are hardly representative of the average Catholic. The overwhelming evidence is that the average lay Catholic does not even think that the Pope is infallible but even a fervent Catholic would call the Pope 'God on earth'.
Originally posted by Conrau Kbut even a fervent Catholic would call the Pope 'God on earth'.
[b]What don't you understand about ex Catholics telling me to my face how they viewed the Pope? Were you there in the presence of those conversations?
I have offered you several explanations for this. Perhaps they were not instructed properly in their faith. Perhaps they told you in the light of their conversion when they were unlikely to have an ob ...[text shortened]... k that the Pope is infallible but even a fervent Catholic would call the Pope 'God on earth'.[/b]
I mean to say that they would not.
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Originally posted by Conrau K"All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope."
[b]but even a fervent Catholic would call the Pope 'God on earth'.
I mean to say that they would not.[/b]
On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17
"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth."
Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous"
"The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth...by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth." Quoted in the New York Catechism.
These words are written in the Roman Canon Law 1685: "To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical."
Father A. Pereira says: "It is quite certain that Popes have never approved or rejected this title 'Lord God the Pope,' for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome in 1580 by Gregory XIII."
Writers on the Canon Law say, "The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth."
Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V. - Cardinal Cusa supports his statement.
Pope Nicholas I declared: "the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man."
Labb IX Dist.: 96 Can. 7, Satis evidentur, Decret Gratian Primer Para
"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh."
Catholic National, July 1895
"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty"
Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894
Roman Catholic Canon Law stipulates through Pope Innocent III that the Roman pontiff is
"the vicegerent upon earth, not a mere man, but of a very God;" and in a gloss on the passage it is explained that this is because he is the vicegerent of Christ, who is "very God and very man." Decretales Domini Gregorii translatione Episcoporum, (on the transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Devretales, col. 205
http://www.lightministries.com/id523.htm#immortal_1
Originally posted by galveston75wow i never knew that 🙂
"All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope."
On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17
"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth."
Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, " ...[text shortened]... ipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Devretales, col. 205