Popes cousin a Jehovahs Witness

Originally posted by galveston75
Lol...Well going back to bed. C ya later. 🙂

ok, sweet dreams of the Cowboys winning the super bowl and Raj slipping on a banana skin 🙂

Originally posted by galveston75
"All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope."
On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth."
Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, " les, col. 205


http://www.lightministries.com/id523.htm#immortal_1

I dispute many of the sources for this quote. I do know the book On the Authority of the Councils. You do not provide a name, nor a date of publication, and I cannot even be sure it has a Catholic imprimatur (a declaration that it is consistent with the faith). Nor do I know who is Barclay is or am familiar with his book Cities Petrus Bertanous. You have to cite directly from the catechism, canon law or papal encyclicals rather than secondary sources (citations from canon law prior to 1984 must refer to particular decrees -- there was no codex as there is today, as I understand.)

A few of quotes however are cited from primary sources. You quote the 'New York Catechism'. I am not sure what this refers to. The Baltimore Catechism has generally always been accepted in the US and it certainly does not refer to the Pope as God. I think that either you have incorrectly titled it or it does not exist. The only verifiable quote in this list is from Pope Leo XIII's encyclical Praeclara Gratulionis Publicae. Here is the following of the paragraph:

But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty, Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the Truth, and now that Our advanced age and the bitterness of anxious cares urge Us on towards the end common to every mortal, We feel drawn to follow the example of Our Redeemer and Master, Jesus Christ, Who, when about to return to Heaven, implored of God, His Father, in earnest Prayer, that His Disciples and followers should be of one mind and of one heart: I pray . . . that they all may be one, as Thou Father in Me, and I in Thee: that they also may be one in Us.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13praec.htm

However, Pope Leo XVI does not claim to be God; he claims the place of God on the earth in the sense that he is leader of the Church who is 'Teacher and Guide to the human race'. He clearly acknowledges Christ as his example. At the end of his encyclical he concludes with a supplication to God for Christian unity. He is clearly not claiming to be God, on earth or anywhere.

Finally, none of this has any bearing on the present discussion. The issue is not whether Catholics believed the Pope to be God on earth in the 16th or 19th centuries; the question is whether they believe it now. Not only then do you have to provide primary sources, but current ones too.

Originally posted by Conrau K
I dispute many of the sources for this quote. I do know the book On the Authority of the Councils. You do not provide a name, nor a date of publication, and I cannot even be sure it has a Catholic imprimatur (a declaration that it is consistent with the faith). Nor do I know who is Barclay is or am familiar with his book [i]Cities Petrus Bertanous[/ believe it now. Not only then do you have to provide primary sources, but current ones too.

Ok Conrau, believe or disbelieve what you. I'm not here to change you in anyway but I know what I've been told to my face by many Catholics and ex Catholics on their view of the Pope or "Holy Father." What disgusting blaspemy!!!! The Bible says we are to call no one Father except for our Father in the heavens. How completely disrepectful to our God giving that honor to some imperfect man!!!
And your not even a Catholic to begin with so your opinion carrys no weight at all.

Originally posted by galveston75
Ok Conrau, believe or disbelieve what you. I'm not here to change you in anyway but I know what I've been told to my face by many Catholics and ex Catholics on their view of the Pope or "Holy Father." What disgusting blaspemy!!!! The Bible says we are to call no one Father except for our Father in the heavens. How completely disrepectful to our God givin ...[text shortened]... man!!!
And your not even a Catholic to begin with so your opinion carrys no weight at all.

Ok Conrau, believe or disbelieve what you. I'm not here to change you in anyway but I know what I've been told to my face by many Catholics and ex Catholics on their view of the Pope or "Holy Father."

And for various reasons, already outlined, I do not believe you or them.

What disgusting blaspemy!!!! The Bible says we are to call no one Father except for our Father in the heavens.

We have been over this before. We often refer to people as teachers and fathers. This is not what Jesus criticised.

And your not even a Catholic to begin with so your opinion carrys no weight at all.

My opinion carries very substantial weight. I am reasonably educated about the Catholic faith and therefore am able to comment on errors. Not professing the Catholic faith, I can also claim to a greater level of objectivity because I have no vested interest.

There really is no winning with you. When I was Catholic, you said I was blinded by dogma. When I am not Catholic, you say my opinion has no weight. Basically your message is that whatever my religious commitments, my opinion should be dismissed. That's really quite unfair.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]Ok Conrau, believe or disbelieve what you. I'm not here to change you in anyway but I know what I've been told to my face by many Catholics and ex Catholics on their view of the Pope or "Holy Father."

And for various reasons, already outlined, I do not believe you or them.

What disgusting blaspemy!!!! The Bible says we are to call no one Fa ...[text shortened]... tever my religious commitments, my opinion should be dismissed. That's really quite unfair.

You are so, so, so completley wrong about calling the Pope "Father." No one has that spiritual position except God. Or to Catholics is it Jesus or the Holy Ghost or the Virgin Mary one of a myriad saints ? Who knows?
And because you are not Catholic it sounds so hypocritical to defend them. If they are so right why your atheist stand? As I said you carry no weight at all with your arguments.
It's like one trying to say how great his country is but refuses to live there....

Originally posted by galveston75
Ok Conrau, believe or disbelieve what you. I'm not here to change you in anyway but I know what I've been told to my face by many Catholics and ex Catholics on their view of the Pope or "Holy Father." What disgusting blaspemy!!!! The Bible says we are to call no one Father except for our Father in the heavens. How completely disrepectful to our God givin ...[text shortened]... man!!!
And your not even a Catholic to begin with so your opinion carrys no weight at all.

How completely disrepectful to our God giving that honor to some imperfect man!!!

Just on this point, the Bible is replete with examples of men and women honoring imperfect beings. The Queen of Sheba knelt before Solomon, a king who would eventually become corrupt. The sick and lame would congregate just to be touched by the shadow of Peter (Acts 5) and be cured, even though he had denied Christ. Sure, the Pope is imperfect and is likely to make numerous mistakes but a Catholic should honor him if they truly regard him as the successor of St Peter and the vicar of Christ.

Originally posted by galveston75
You are so, so, so completley wrong about calling the Pope "Father." No one has that spiritual position except God. Or to Catholics is it Jesus or the Holy Ghost or the Virgin Mary one of a myriad saints ? Who knows?
And because you are not Catholic it sounds so hypocritical to defend them. If they are so right why your atheist stand? As I said you car ...[text shortened]... guments.
It's like one trying to say how great his country is but refuses to live there....

You are so, so, so completley wrong about calling the Pope "Father." No one has that spiritual position except God. Or to Catholics is it Jesus or the Holy Ghost or the Virgin Mary one of a myriad saints ? Who knows?

Of course only God has that "spiritual" position. Jesus however does not mention spiritual fatherhood. This is your own invention.

And because you are not Catholic it sounds so hypocritical to defend them. If they are so right why your atheist stand? As I said you carry no weight at all with your arguments.

It is not hypocritical at all. It is a sign of balance. I believe that the Catholic Church is wrong but why does that entitle you to distort its doctrines and accuse it of a whole host of teachings which it does not hold?

It's like one trying to say how great his country is but refuses to live there....

No; it's not at all. I do not want to be a Muslim and yet when Muslim beliefs are completely misrepresented, I will challenge that.

I suppose you also think that only a Jehovah's Witness should defend the organisation from erroneous accusations? So if Manny says that the Jehovah's Witnesses are guilty of concealing sexual abuse allegations, I should not correct him? In fact, I should support him? Good one, Galvo!

Originally posted by galveston75
You are so, so, so completley wrong about calling the Pope "Father." No one has that spiritual position except God. Or to Catholics is it Jesus or the Holy Ghost or the Virgin Mary one of a myriad saints ? Who knows?
And because you are not Catholic it sounds so hypocritical to defend them. If they are so right why your atheist stand? As I said you car ...[text shortened]... guments.
It's like one trying to say how great his country is but refuses to live there....

please explain Is. 9: 6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

in light of your previous comments and your anti-trinitarian views, you have some answering to do.

Originally posted by duecer
please explain Is. 9: 6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

in light of your previous comments and your anti-trinitarian views, you some answering to do.

still bashing away at the ol trinity Deucer, a doctrine not mentioned by Christ nor Paul and unknown to the early Christians, inherited from the Greek pagans at the beginning of the fourth century, when will you give it up ?

there are not a few things in scripture termed God in the Bible, Jesus, Satan, Marduk, Bal etc etc there is only one word used with reference to the most High and it is Almighty God, used for none one but Jehovah himself and which distinguishes him from lesser Gods.

a God is simply a biblical term for a mighty personage, in this instance Jesus Christ. It proves nothing, but hey, that's never stopped you before.


Jesus himself referred to his Father as “the only true God.” (John 17:3) Jehovah himself said: “Besides me there is no God.” (Isa. 44:6) The apostle Paul wrote that, to true Christians, “there is . . . one God the Father.” (1 Cor. 8:5, 6) So Jehovah is unique; no one else shares his position. Jehovah stands in utter contrast to all such objects of worship as idols, deified humans, and Satan. All these are false gods.

Jesus is spoken of in the Scriptures as “a god,” even as “Mighty God.” (John 1:1; Isa. 9:6) But nowhere is he spoken of as being Almighty, as Jehovah is. (Gen. 17:1) Jesus is said to be “the reflection of [God’s] glory,” but the Father is the Source of that glory. (Heb. 1:3) Jesus in no way seeks the position of his Father. He said: “It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.” (Luke 4:8) He exists “in God’s form,” and the Father has commanded that “in the name of Jesus every knee should bend,” but this is all done “to the glory of God the Father.”—Phil. 2:5-11

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
still bashing away at the ol trinity Deucer, a doctrine not mentioned by Christ nor Paul and unknown to the early Christians, inherited from the Greek pagans at the beginning of the fourth century, when will you give it up ?

there are not a few things in scripture termed God in the Bible, Jesus, Satan, Marduk, Bal etc etc there is only one word us us every knee should bend,” but this is all done “to the glory of God the Father.”—Phil. 2:5-11

Galvo accused someone here of disgusting blasphemy, I prove him wrong and you fail to acknowledge it. You are indeed deluded by your cult. I don't say that to be rude, I say it because it is simply true. You continually accuse me (and others) of not posting scripture to back up our argument, yet whenever we do you completely dismiss our well thought theological perspectives especially the ones we make using scripture.

I hate to name call but you are deluded and a liar (proven in another thread)

Originally posted by duecer
please explain Is. 9: 6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
[b] Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

in light of your previous comments and your anti-trinitarian views, you have some answering to do.[/b]

Jesus is never called the "Almighty God." But you probably don't see the differance as that would screw up the trinity for you.
But yes he is a God but not the Almighty God. Satan is refered to as a God. So what's your point?

Originally posted by duecer
Galvo accused someone here of disgusting blasphemy, I prove him wrong and you fail to acknowledge it. You are indeed deluded by your cult. I don't say that to be rude, I say it because it is simply true. You continually accuse me (and others) of not posting scripture to back up our argument, yet whenever we do you completely dismiss our well thought theologic ...[text shortened]... ng scripture.

I hate to name call but you are deluded and a liar (proven in another thread)

Post any scripture you want and why you think it supports, say the trinity, just like the last one you just did and I'll talk to you about it.

Originally posted by galveston75
Jesus is never called the "Almighty God." But you probably don't see the differance as that would screw up the trinity for you.
But yes he is a God but not the Almighty God. Satan is refered to as a God. So what's your point?

but he is called everlasting FATHER

Originally posted by duecer
Galvo accused someone here of disgusting blasphemy, I prove him wrong and you fail to acknowledge it. You are indeed deluded by your cult. I don't say that to be rude, I say it because it is simply true. You continually accuse me (and others) of not posting scripture to back up our argument, yet whenever we do you completely dismiss our well thought theologic ...[text shortened]... ng scripture.

I hate to name call but you are deluded and a liar (proven in another thread)

Lol, worthy of the front page of any tabloid newspaper, nothing but ad hominen attacks and personal insults. When you have something worthy of our attention, that is something with content, then we shall have something to discuss, as for 'well thought out theological perspectives', like 'Christ went to heaven the same day as he was crucified along with the thief', in each and every instance, the word of God refutes your claims and you slither away without making comment, but hey i understand, nobody likes to look completely foolish.

Originally posted by duecer
but he is called everlasting [b]FATHER[/b]

Ok Duecer, please take your time here. Look up all the scriptures that are quoted and try to get what it is saying. I understand that when one believes in something so strong as the trinity it is hard at times to see what is being said. But there is a differance in God being called Father and the term father being used for Jesus.

FATHER
The Hebrew word ’av, translated “father,” is a mimetic (imitative) word taken from the first and simplest sounds of infant lips. The Hebrew ’av and the Greek pater are both used in various senses: as begetter, or progenitor, of an individual (Pr 23:22; Zec 13:3; Lu 1:67), the head of a household or ancestral family (Ge 24:40; Ex 6:14), an ancestor (Ge 28:13; Joh 8:53), a founder of a nation (Mt 3:9), a founder of a class or profession (Ge 4:20, 21), a protector (Job 29:16; Ps 68:5), the source of something (Job 38:28), and a term of respect (2Ki 5:13; Ac 7:2).
Jehovah God as Creator is called Father. (Isa 64:8; compare Ac 17:28, 29.) He is also the Father of spirit-begotten Christians, the Aramaic term ’Abba; being used as an expression of respect and of close filial relationship. (Ro 8:15; see ABBA.) All who express faith with a hope of everlasting life can address God as Father. (Mt 6:9) Jesus Christ, the Messiah, because of being God’s Chief Agent of life, was prophetically called Eternal Father. (Isa 9:6) Also, anyone who has imitators and followers, or those who exhibit his qualities, is regarded as a father to them. (Mt 5:44, 45; Ro 4:11, 12) In this sense the Devil is spoken of as a father.—Joh 8:44; compare Ge 3:15.
((((((Applying “father” to men as a formalistic or religious title was forbidden by Jesus. (Mt 23:9)"""""" Because of Paul’s bringing the good news to certain Christians and nourishing them spiritually he was like a father to them, but in no scripture is “father” applied to him as a religious title. (1Co 4:14, 15) Paul likened himself to both a father and a mother in his relation to the Thessalonian Christians. (1Th 2:7, 11) Whereas reference is made at Luke 16:24, 30 to “father Abraham,” this is basically in the sense of fleshly ancestry.