Preach to us on these Bible passages

Originally posted by sonhouse
Another oxymoron in the Paulism religion, Spirituality. You wouldn't know spirituality if it came up an slapped you on the face. Your religion is anything BUT spiritual. It is a political movement, nothing more.

Atheism, with its evil-lution, is religious falsity and political. Christianity is spirituality and truth. God seeks those that will worship Him in spirit and truth.
(John 4:23-24)

Originally posted by RJHinds
Atheism, with its evil-lution, is religious falsity and political. Christianity is spirituality and truth. God seeks those that will worship Him in spirit and truth.
(John 4:23-24)

I think I am going to puke.

Originally posted by sonhouse
I think I am going to puke.

Perhaps you should stay on the Science forum since you are so interested in the science thingy.

Don't forget that chapter 14 comes after chapter 7 and is most likely talking about a later time period. Therefore, the 144,000 of chapter 7 that were there before the tribulation could have been raptured perhaps half-way through the tribulation and appeared in heaven in chapter 14. Don't you think something like this is possible? Or maybe they were all killed during the tibulation.

Yes, chapter 14 indeed comes after chapter 7. But there is a big however. And if you miss this point understanding the chronology of events in Revelation is rather difficult.

Revelation should be divided up into two major portions. The real conclusion to the first section is in chapter 11. Then from chapter 12 on you REVISIT some of the events generally covered in previous chapters only with a special focus on the last three and one half years of the church age. (plus some new details too).

Now this takes time. And first I would try to show you that the Revelation's first half concludes in chapter 11.

Revelation 11:14 - And the seventh angel trumpeted; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever.

And the twenty four elders who sit before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshipped God, Saying, we thank You, Lord God the Almighty, He who is and who was, because You have taken Your great power and have reigned.

And the nations became angry, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to give the reward to Your slaves the prophets and to the saints and to those who fear Your name, to the small and the great, and to destroy thosee who destroy the earth. " (Rev. 11:14-18)

With this passage the first section concludes announcing that God is the one who " IS AND WHO WAS" (v.17) . He is no longer the one "Who is to come" because by this time Christ has fully come down to earth.

This seventh trumpet therefore consist of things which extend out into eternity. With the sounding of the seventh trumpet:

1.) the kingdom has come to earth in full (v.15)
2.) Christ begins to reign "forever and ever" (v.15)
3.) God has taken His great power to reign over the earth (v.17)
4.) The angry nations have been totally defeated (v.18)
5.) The time of a judgment of the dead before the millennium has come (v.18 comp. John 5:28,29)
6.) The time to give reward of the millennial kingdom to the saints (v.18)
7.) The time to reward those who feared the name of God (v.18)
8.) The time to destroy the ones who destroy the earth (v.18)

The seventh trumpet consists of both positive and negative results and some of which extend out into eternity forever "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever."

I strongly recommend that you consider Rev. 11:14-18 (the sounding and results of the seventh trumpet) as the conclusion to the first major prophecy. This is the end of the first half of the book.

Now your astute point is that Revelation 14 comes AFTER chapter 7. Indeed. But chapter 14 is in the second section of the two part book. Chapters 12 through 22 really form the second section of the book.

Now in the second section from chapter 12 on not everything can be taken as chronologically after all things in the first section (say chapter 4 through 11). Some events are revisited with further detail. And some events are new. And there is a focus on the last three and one half years of the church age.

I think in another post I will reinforce this scheme with another reason. That is I know that chapters 12 on cannot be a strict chronological continuation of chapters 4 through 11 because the descent of Satan is covered TWICE. So I know that some matters in chapters 12 on are revisits to prophecies before chapter 11.

In the first section in chapter 9 Satan is the star that is fallen from heaven and given the key to the pit of the abyss. This is at the fifth trumpet:

And the fifth angel trumpeted, and I saw a star out of heaven fallen to the earth, and to him was given the key of the pit of the abyss. (Rev. 9:1)

This fallen star is a personage because "to HIM was given the key of the pit of the abyss." The "him" is Satan who was the Daystar - Lucifer. And he is cast down "fallen" not of his own accord, to the earth. But in reaction to his new limitation he unleashes Antichrist who is the Destroyer of verse 11. This Destroyer is "Abaddon" (Hebrew) and "Apollyon" (Greek). The fifth trumpet covers the descent of Satan and the bringing up of Antichrist from the pit of the abyss. (His SOUL comes up from that realm).

But the descent of Satan is recovered again in the second section starting with chapter 12 as the dragon cast down from heaven.

"And they [Satan and his angels] did not prevail, neither was their place found any longer in heaven. And the great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole inhabited earth; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him." (12:8,9)

The fallen star in chapter 9 at the fifth trumpet is also the cast down dragon of chapter 12. This proves that after chapter 11's conclusion the second section re-covers some events already spoken of. Here mainly the descent of Satan to the earth for good.

I stop here for this post.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] Don't forget that chapter 14 comes after chapter 7 and is most likely talking about a later time period. Therefore, the 144,000 of chapter 7 that were there before the tribulation could have been raptured perhaps half-way through the tribulation and appeared in heaven in chapter 14. Don't you think something like this is possible? Or maybe they were descent of Satan to the earth for good.

I stop here for this post.

I may be wrong, since I haven't studied the book of Revelation that much, but 144,000 is the same number and seems to me like the same because they are both marked on their forehead. The ones in chapter 7 with the seal of our living God and the ones in chapter 14 with the name of the Father and the Son. I believe this seal of our living God consists of the name of God and therefore these 144,00 are marked the same.

Here is a link to a commentary that agrees with me:

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/revelation-14/revelation-14-1.html

However, it does give reference to another commentary that seems to agree with you with the following:

The two distinct companies—of Israel and the Gentiles—were beheld by the Seer in separate visions (Rev. Rev. 7:1+). The elect company from the twelve tribes (Rev. Rev. 7:4-8+), is not only distinct from their Gentile associates (Rev. Rev. 7:9-17+), but is equally distinct from the 144,000 from amongst Judah who emerge out of the horrors of the coming hour of trial standing on Mount Zion. There are two Jewish companies of equal number. The hundred and forty-four thousand of Israel ) (Rev. Rev. 7:1+) and the hundred and forty-four thousand of Judah (Rev. Rev. 14:1+).”—Walter Scott, Exposition of The Revelation (London, England: Pickering & Inglis, n.d.), 158.

So I guess we can take our pick.

but is equally distinct from the 144,000 from amongst Judah who emerge out of the horrors of the coming hour of trial standing on Mount Zion. There are two Jewish companies of equal number. The hundred and forty-four thousand of Israel ) (Rev. Rev. 7:1+) and the hundred and forty-four thousand of Judah (Rev. Rev. 14:1+).”—Walter Scott, Exposition of The Revelation (London, England: Pickering & Inglis, n.d.), 158.

This is not what I explained at all.

But let me know if you would like me to explain more what I understand there.
I'd be happy to just for your further consideration and study.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] but is equally distinct from the 144,000 from amongst Judah who emerge out of the horrors of the coming hour of trial standing on Mount Zion. There are two Jewish companies of equal number. The hundred and forty-four thousand of Israel ) (Rev. Rev. 7:1+) and the hundred and forty-four thousand of Judah (Rev. Rev. 14:1+).”—Walter Scott, Exposition of ...[text shortened]... n more what I understand there.
I'd be happy to just for your further consideration and study.

Maybe you can find a commentary that is closer to your liking.

Maybe you can find a commentary that is closer to your liking.

Well, for some years I did consider that the two groups should be the same.
Some good expositors believe so.

First I saw some commentary that suggested they were not the same but with not strong argumentation. Then latter I came across the arguments of D M Panton reasoning that they should not be the same group. I found this argumentation reasonable.

However, the reasons that I gave you were largly my own. I mean the two sections of Revelation interpretation was not my own. But looking at the timing issues was my own.

It could be that the 144,000 are latter raptured as you suggested. But I think you have two different groups serving two different places in the overall scheme of the end times.

The 144,000 Firstfruits are sealed because they are so pleasing to the Father and are for His satisfaction. This agrees with the firstfruits being offered in the temple to God ahead of the harvest in the Old Testament.

Firstfruits means they RIPEN early. God's people on earth are considered as a crop of growing plants. They grow, develop, and mature. Those which mature earlier are those Firstfruits .

Now this is important. The reason why SOME believers are spared going through the great tribulation is because they have ALREADY learned the lessons of endurance through trials.

Let me say it again please. The only reason why some Christians will be raptured OUT of the time of the great tribulation is because the lessons of the great tribulation they have already LEARNED through the endurance of previous times.

Proof Text - "BECAUSE .... you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth." (Rev. 3:10)

What is important here is the principle. I am not saying Revelation 3:10 refers to the 144,000 Firstfruits per se. But the principle is what I emphasize. Because some in their daily lives of typical troubles, hardships, difficulties and tribulations have already LEARNED the lessons of relying on God's grace, as a reward they do not have to go through the lessons of the great tribulation. What benefit the great tribulation would have rendered them they have already benefitted from out of normal obedience.

Do you follow me?

The Firstfruits have become ripe in the divine life beforehand by following the Lamb where ever He may go. So they are simply like Enoch who one day just was taken. These Firstfruits ripen before the great tribulation WHEREAS the majority of believers are left to pass through and ripen under the heat of the great tribulation.

In the same chapter about the early Firstfruits you have latter the Harvest.

"And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, Send forth Your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come because the harvest of the earth is ripe.

And He who sat on the cloud thrust His sickle upon the earth, and the earth was reaped." (Rev. 14:15,16)

The key matter is ripeness, maturity, full growth and readiness to be brought to the Lord Jesus. The Firstfruits matured early and were taken early, even before the events of the great tribulation. This is a minority.

Then at the end of that time of trial the majority of believers who were left on the earth to pass through the trial ripen under its heated times of difficulty. Then the time for the ripeness of the Harvest comes and the vast majority are reaped up in rapture.


But the 144,000 in chapter 7 seemed to have done nothing in particular except that they are sovereignly preserved according to God's mercy. But someone might object and say that they are "the slaves of our God"(7:3).

I think these are Jews whereas the Firstfruits could be Jews or Gentiles as long as they are in the one new man of the Body of Christ.

I don't know why Walter Scott identified them as from the tribe of Judah.

They should be as Enoch was - just men (probably women also) who follow the Lamb through trials which caused them to be mature and ready to be the FIRST ripened ones. That is mature in the divine life.

Now you mentioned something about Joel 2 which I have to look into. Give me a minute.

Not exactly. I believe the 144,000 mentioned in chapter 14 are the same ones mentioned in chapter 7. These 144,000 are the sons and daughters prophesied in Joel 2:28-29 of which the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) was a type before this great tribulation that is to come. These servants of God are not sons and daughters of the gentile tribes or nations, but from the tribes of Israel, with the tribe of Dan (Genesis 49:16-17) being replaced by one of the two tribes from Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh, who Jacob (Israel) gave a special blessing (Genesis 48).

Joel 2:28-31 - "And afterward I will pour out My Spirit upon all flesh, And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy; Your old men shall dream dreams; Your young men shall see visions.

Indeed even upon the male and female slaves in those days I will pour out My Spirit.

And I will show wonders in the heavens and on earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon, into blood, Before the great and terrible Day of Jehovah comes."

RJ your point is that Acts 2 was a type of this group and the 144,00o Revelation 7 and 14 are the antitype - the real fulfillment.

I understand about the omission of Dan in Revelation 7.

I want to think about your proposal for awhile.

Originally posted by sonship

Maybe you can find a commentary that is closer to your liking.

Well, for some years I did consider that the two groups should be the same.
Some good expositors believe so.

First I saw some commentary that suggested they were not the same but with not strong argumentation. Then latter I came across the arguments of D M Pan ...[text shortened]... Now you mentioned something about Joel 2 which I have to look into. Give me a minute.

I suppose you already know this, but just to make it clear, the term "Jew" came about after Israel was divided into the southern and northern kingdoms. The southern kingdom, including Jerusalem, was controlled by the tribe of Judah as the Kingdom of Judah and all those people loyal to the Kingdom of Judah became know as Jews and eventually all people of Israel became known as Jews.

Having said that, I don't see any reason to think there are two groups of 144,000 because that one group includes the tribe of Judah and all the tribes of the northern kingdom.

I suppose you already know this, but just to make it clear, the term "Jew" came about after Israel was divided into the southern and northern kingdoms. The southern kingdom, including Jerusalem, was controlled by the tribe of Judah as the Kingdom of Judah and all those people loyal to the Kingdom of Judah became know as Jews and eventually all people of Israel became known as Jews.

I never heard that before. Maybe it is so. I don't know.

I see that the term is used for the first time in 2 Kings 16:6 refering to some thing in the reign of Ahaz over Judah.

Having said that, I don't see any reason to think there are two groups of 144,000 because that one group includes the tribe of Judah and all the tribes of the northern kingdom.

If you could adopt a New Testament perspective. If you could grasp the concept of Firstfruits and Harvest in terms of New Testament salvation, I don't see why anyone has to insist Jews, Hebrews, men of Judah has to be the meaning of those 144,000 in chapter 14.

With the same logic do we assume the Harvest is all Jews too in verses 15?

In that chapter no explicit word tells us of the nationality of either the Firstfruits or the Harvest. Not a word concerning the ethnicity of either the Firstfruits or the Harvest is given.

You can only assume that the Firstfruits of chapter 14 has their ethnicity implied because chapter 7 says something about the twelve tribes of Israel. But if you take chapter 14 by itself, not a whisper is mentioned about the natural culture of these Firstfruits in terms of nationality.

In chapter 7 people of the tribe of Judah ARE explicitlty mentioned in verse 5. But the number of them is twelve thousands and not one hundred and forty four thousand.

Am I right ?

"Out of the tribe of Judah, TWLEVE THOUSAND sealed; ..." (7:5)

Explain why I should consider 12,000 of Judah from chapter 7 to be the same as 144,000 in chapter 14, if I at all understand the proposed interpretation.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] I suppose you already know this, but just to make it clear, the term "Jew" came about after Israel was divided into the southern and northern kingdoms. The southern kingdom, including Jerusalem, was controlled by the tribe of Judah as the Kingdom of Judah and all those people loyal to the Kingdom of Judah became know as Jews and eventually all people be the same as 144,000 in chapter 14, if I at all understand the proposed interpretation.

You seem to be trying to complicate the issue, where I am trying to simplify it. I am saying that the term "Jews" is not mentioned in Revelation at all. It is talking about all Israel not just the kingdom of Judah. If you want to use that term, I just want to make it clear that you are using it to include all the tribes of Israel.

Chapter 6 presents a vision of the tribulation period as 7 seals with only 6 seals opened.

Chapter 7 mentions 144,000 to be sealed from all Israel on earth and you refer to them as Jews. It also mentions a great multitude that was not counted from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues that are standing before the throne of god that came out of the great tribulation. So the believing gentiles are also included in chapter 7.

Chapter 8 reveals the opening of the 7th seal consisting of 7 trumpet judgments of which only 6 trumpets are sounded.

Chapter 9 reveals the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

Chapter 14 mentions the 144,000 again, but this time they are with the Lamb standing on Mount Zion. They are said to have the name of the Lamb and His Father written on their foreheads and are the firstfruits that have been purchased and no lie was found on their lips for they were blameless.

No, I believe the harvest in verse 15 is a great multitude from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues.

You seem to be trying to complicate the issue, where I am trying to simplify it. I am saying that the term "Jews" is not mentioned in Revelation at all. It is talking about all Israel not just the kingdom of Judah. If you want to use that term, I just want to make it clear that you are using it to include all the tribes of Israel.

Okay, "Jews" is not mentioned in Revelation. I do not understand how this matters to the 12,000 sealed from the twelve tribes of Israel assuring you that the Firstfruits of chapter 14 have to be the same 12,000 sealed from the twelve tribes.

Chapter 6 presents a vision of the tribulation period as 7 seals with only 6 seals opened.

Chapter 7 mentions 144,000 to be sealed from all Israel on earth and you refer to them as Jews. It also mentions a great multitude that was not counted from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues that are standing before the throne of god that came out of the great tribulation. So the believing gentiles are also included in chapter 7.

Chapter six covers -

The first seal - verses 1-2
The second seal - verses 3-4
The third seal - verses 5-6
The fourth seal - verses 7-8
The fifth seal - verses 9-11
The sixth seal - verses 12-17

None of these are the great tribulation. The great tribulation commences with the fifth trumpet. The coming down of Satan to be finally limited to the earth is the start of the great tribulation and is the three woes mentioned just before the sounding of trumpets five, six, and seven:

The sixth seal is a supernatural WARNING that the great tribulation is about to commence. And for sure there is tribulation up to that point. But the specific great tribulation commences with the fifth trumpet and is announced as three dreadful WOES -

Revelation 8:13 - "And I saw, and I heard an eagle flying in mid-heaven, sayhing with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to those who dwell on the earth because of the remaining trumpet sounds of the three angels who are about to trumpet!

And the fifth angel trumpeted, and I saw a star out of heaven fallen to the earth, and to him was given the key to the pit of the abyss.

The sixth seal is the shaking of the cosmos as a warning that the great tribulation is about to come. And the great tribulation is the three WOES that commence with the fifth trumpet. Said great tribulation continues with the sixth and seventh trumpet.

I can prove it. But right now I only say that chapter 7 is an insertion of a vision between the sixth and the seventh seal. And you are right that preservation of people on the earth is a theme.

Firstly, before the seventh seal with its seven trumpets and especially the fifth, sixth, and seventh trumpet of the great tribulationm, John is shown a promise that God will preserve certain peoples through what is about to come.

First He will seal 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel.
Secondly He assures John that a multitude which cannot be numbered will be saved and raptured.

The twelve tribes 12,000 each sealed - 7:1-17.
The numberless multitude - 7:9-17

Though there are many who regard "These are those who come out of the great tribulation" to mean that they come out of the three and one half years of the "great tribulation" mentioned in Matthew, I do not regard this as the meaning.

I regard "These are those who come out of the great tribulation" to mean to come out of the entire human history from the fall of Adam until the end including the last three and a half years.

The entire world history of Satan's usurpation of the planet has been a "great tribulation". And the multitude is so large that I regard it to signify the then living saints as well as the resurrected saints of all the past ages. The multitude which cannot be numbered, I take, to be the entire huge population of saved human beings.

World history from the fall of Adam has been the great tribulation through which ALL the saints of God will come through in eternity. Those who died before the last age will be resurrected to join the multitude which cannot be numbered. Strictly speaking many many believers will have been asleep in Paradise and will not pass through the last three and one half years. But they did pass through the human history from Adam as a great tribulation.

But the point we are discussing is is the 144,000 the same in both Revelation 7 as in Revelation 14 ? I don't think they are. Not everyone agrees with this. I don't regard it as worth a big split in fellowship.

I give my reasons. I listen to others' reasons and that is all I feel required to do. I don't feel required to force my view so that someone else has to back down on theirs.

What I think is the same in both instances is the principle of a REMNANT, a minority especially assigned or especially set aside by God. Twelve as the number of perfection in eternity being multiplied by itself signals some perfection of state in God's eyes. And the specific number signaling that it is a remnant among a majority.

I think the 144,000 of the twelve tribes will be those repentant and finally acknowledging Christ their Messiah at the end of this age. I do not believe they are the only Israelites to do so.

And the 144,000 Firstfruits are the living overcomers from the church who will be taken to heaven before the start of the great tribulation.

Their experience of being raptured alive because of their godly walk is the unique experience among human beings which gives them this unique SONG. A song comes out of experience. And no one but these will have such an experience as being raptured Enoch style because of their walk with God in following the Lamb.

"And they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one could learn the song except the hundred and forty four thousand, who have been purchased from the earth." (14:3)

No one has their experience. So no one can learn to sing their song which comes out of their unique experience.

And what is the experience they have which is unique? It is that they never tasted physical death. They lived the Christian life and were raptured alive even as Enoch was in Genesis. They simply followed Christ right up into Heaven one day before the great tribulation.

The principle of a remnant is the same. But I don't think the group is the same.

Chapter 8 reveals the opening of the 7th seal consisting of 7 trumpet judgments of which only 6 trumpets are sounded.

Chapter 9 reveals the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

Chapter 14 mentions the 144,000 again, but this time they are with the Lamb standing on Mount Zion. They are said to have the name of the Lamb and His Father written on their foreheads and are the firstfruits that have been purchased and no lie was found on their lips for they were blameless.

No, I believe the harvest in verse 15 is a great multitude from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues.

I think I agree that the Harvest would include living saints and resurrected saints - a very large harvest.

The dead overcomers are seen raptured in the Manchild of chapter 12.
The living then overcomers are seen raptured (or simply standing in Heaven) in chapter 14 as the Firstfruits.

Probably the 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel in chapter 7 are not raptured at all. They are simply preserved through the trial to finally recognize the Lord Jesus at the end of it.

Other teachers taught that these 144,000 in chapter 7 would be great evangelists preaching during the time of the great triublation. I see no reason to believe this at all.

Not a word is said about what they DO. They are simply said to have been sealed before the HARM is unleashed upon the globe.

Originally posted by sonship

You seem to be trying to complicate the issue, where I am trying to simplify it. I am saying that the term "Jews" is not mentioned in Revelation at all. It is talking about all Israel not just the kingdom of Judah. If you want to use that term, I just want to make it clear that you are using it to include all the tribes of Israel.

Okay, mply said to have been sealed before the HARM is unleashed upon the globe.

“Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

(Revelation 7:3-4 NKJV)

What makes them servants of our God? What do you think they do to serve our God during the Tribulation?

“Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

(Revelation 7:3-4 NKJV)

What makes them servants of our God? What do you think they do to serve our God during the Tribulation?

At the fifth trumpet they are not stung by the demonic locusts.

"And it was said to them that they should not harm the grass of the earth or an green thing or any tree, but men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads." (Rev. 9:4)

Since they were sealed on their foreheads (7:3), the DO escape this attack of the locusts from the pit of the abyss.

They do become persecuted as the those who keep the commandments of God along with those who have the testimony of Jesus -

"And the dragon became angry with the women and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus." (Rev. 12:17)

They as the servants of God by virtue of being sealed are the second part of the twosome -

1.) those who keep the commandments of God

2.) those who have the testimony of Jesus

And here I have no problem refering to them as Jews regardless of when the term began to be used.

The persecution of the Antichrist will be severe against the Christians remaining on the earth and against those of the twelve tribes of Israel who in defiance continue to keep the commandments of God.

The twosome is mentioned again in 14:12 as resisting the Antichrist and false prophet -

"Here is the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." (14:12)

1.) those who keep the commandments of God (probably the 144,000)

2.) those who keep the faith of Jesus (the Christian believers left on earth)

So they are servants of God alright in the same sense that Saul of Tarsus in unbelief of Christ was like a donkey kicking the wagon.

" ... I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew dialect, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads. And I said, Who are You Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus, whom you persecute." (Acts 26:14,15)

The point here is that God had His hand upon Saul of Tarsus as a servant even before Saul recognized Jesus. In God's sovereignty Saul was like a little donkey attached to a cart, God's cart.

The sealing of the 144,000 of the twelve Israeli tribes is like God reserving 144,000 Jewish commandment keepers, who do not yet know the Lord Jesus, are servants of God according to His sovereignty.

The reason why it was difficult for me to accept this at first was because I didn't see that this is a time of transition. The age of the gospel of grace as preached by the church before the rapture is now in transition.

Two groups of especially persecuted targets of Antichrist exist during the great tribulation. That is those who have the testimony of Jesus and those who keep the commandments of God according to the Judaism which they refuse to deny.