Preach to us on these Bible passages

Originally posted by twhitehead
Do you notice how this is quite different from what you said in your previous post?
Here the argument is:
1. Evil exists.
2. Theists do not believe in evil Gods.
3. Therefore 'not evil' Gods cannot exist.

Whereas in your previous post you claimed that the conclusion was that 'no Creator exists.'

Note also that most athiests when making the argum ...[text shortened]... , they don't even rule out the possibility of a nice God who is not able to stop suffering.

You got a lot wrong there.

I never said #2 and I never said #3.

What I said was, Atheists--as is my interpretation over years and years of hearing thousands of Atheist speak on the subject--generally speaking--argue that not only do they not believe in God, but even if they did believe in a creator, it wouldn't be the Christian God because He is obviously unjust and evil which is not how the bible describes (which means the bible is disqualified and so is God).

It's not easy to state the argument, because it's pretty convoluted in and of itself... but it is consistent among the vast, vast majority of Atheists. In fact, it's completely consistent with what you just got through saying:

You don't believe in God
But there could be a creator
And if there is, you "don't like the idea" of it being the Christian God.

Originally posted by OdBod
Hang on, I've got a perfectly good Mondeo Eatate.It is boring,predictable,uninteresting,cheap to run and never gets stolen!

You perhaps have a problem recognizing sarcasm?

Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
How about tackling the last two.

* And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed. - Revelation 7:4

* Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli, the son of Mat ...[text shortened]... d in a literal way to calculate that humans have only been on Earth for some few thousand years.

You got the second one right. Try again on the first one. 😏

Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
Some Christians say some particular Bible verse is literally true, while others say it was meant to be read as metaphor or hyperbole or poetry. Some say a Biblical passage was meant for some tribe living at some time in the past, but does not apply to the modern church. Some will say the modern translation is a corruption of a perfect original, so that mo ...[text shortened]... he son of Heli, the son of Matthat… the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. - Luke 3:23–38

"Forgiveness"

http://www.acts17-11.com/forgive.html
-

Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
Some Christians say some particular Bible verse is literally true, while others say it was meant to be read as metaphor or hyperbole or poetry. Some say a Biblical passage was meant for some tribe living at some time in the past, but does not apply to the modern church. Some will say the modern translation is a corruption of a perfect original, so that ...[text shortened]... on of Heli, the son of Matthat… the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. - Luke 3:23–38

Why don't we start at the beginning?

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth".

It means what it says, and it says what it means. And much much more!

* And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed. - Revelation 7:4

Paul it is important to pick up all the stated facts. Especially in a highly symbolic book like Revelation you must master all the facts, all the mentioned details.

The number 144,000 is mentioned twice in Revelation (chapters 7 & 14) in relation to a remnant of people especially preserved or related to God in less than general way. I believe two different groups of people are indicated. Your question regards chapter 7.

You can see that the 144,000 mentioned are from the 12 tribes of Israel. (v.4).

What preceeds the enumeration of this remnant as 12,000 from each tribe is this:
"After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth nor on the sea nor on any tree." (v.1)

"And I saw another Angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and He cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom authority was given to harm the earth and the sea, (v.2)

Saying, Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the slaves of our God upon their foreheads." (v.3)

1.) The last days of this age before the coming of Christ will be marked with both natural and supernatural calamities upon the earth. The idea here is that before these dreadful calamities are executed a remnant of Jews will be preserved in it and/or through it.

2.) When a specific number is mentioned I think we should get the idea that God preserves a remnant, a minority who are assured special place in His plan. It may not mean that they are the only ones saved. It should mean that we are assured a remnant is preserved.

3.) I use the word "preserve" because the tone is that before the natural and supernatural calamities are unleashed it is important that these 144,000 first be marked or sealed - "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the slaves of our God ..."

4.) I agree with some expositors like Darby who feel that sometimes Angel should be capitalized in Revelation because it is THE Angel of Jehovah of the Bible who is usually Christ. Many angels are mentioned in Revelation. A few places probably indicate Christ as the Sent one of God who was in the Old Testament, before His incarnation the Angel of Jehovah.

5.) A remnant of Jews therefore are assured to be especially marked by the angels of God to be able to pass through the great tribulation. I don't think they realoze at that time that Christ is their Messiah. They nevertheless are marked as God's servants by preservation.

This is not like the 144,000 in Revelation who have upon their foreheads the name of the Lamb (Jesus) and the name of His Father (14:1) . These are defintely Christian believers because they "follow the Lamb [the Redeeming Christ) whereever He may go." (14:4).

The 144,000 in chapter 7 are sealed with no mention of the Lamb but of the living God. They are related to God as the living God overall from the Old Testament times. But the 144,000 of chapter 14 are related to the incarnate God who has become the redeeming Lamb - Christ as God incarnate.

So I don't the two groups are identical. But the priniciple involving a remnant in both cases is the same.

I am not embarking on a full explanation Revelation 14 here.

From the rising of the sun I have to review and study latter. Generally, God inserts a vision in the series to assure John that a remnant of Jews from the 12 tribes of Israel will be preserved before and through the supernatural and natural calamities of the great tribulation time. They will be marked for survival before the judging angelic beings unleash terrible judgments upon the earth before the descent of Christ to establish His kingdom on the globe.

I do not think it means only 144,000 Jews are left alive.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Try again on the first one.

Are you in agreement with what sonship writes immediately above?

Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
Are you in agreement with what sonship writes immediately above?

Not exactly. I believe the 144,000 mentioned in chapter 14 are the same ones mentioned in chapter 7. These 144,000 are the sons and daughters prophesied in Joel 2:28-29 of which the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) was a type before this great tribulation that is to come. These servants of God are not sons and daughters of the gentile tribes or nations, but from the tribes of Israel, with the tribe of Dan (Genesis 49:16-17) being replaced by one of the two tribes from Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh, who Jacob (Israel) gave a special blessing (Genesis 48).

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Originally posted by RJHinds
Not exactly. I believe the 144,000 mentioned in chapter 14 are the same ones mentioned in chapter 7. These 144,000 are the sons and daughters prophesied in Joel 2:28-29 of which the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) was a type before this great tribulation that is to come. These servants of God are not sons and daughters of the gentile tribes or nations, but from ...[text shortened]... rael) gave a special blessing (Genesis 48).

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Yes, it is just like your pathetic religion that your god needs sycophants all bowing and kneeling just like a pathetic 10th century king would demand.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Yes, it is just like your pathetic religion that your god needs sycophants all bowing and kneeling just like a pathetic 10th century king would demand.

Are you making reference to the King of kings and the Lord of lords?

These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.

(Revelation 17:14 NKJV)

And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

(Revelation 19:16 NKJV)

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Not exactly. I believe the 144,000 mentioned in chapter 14 are the same ones mentioned in chapter 7. These 144,000 are the sons and daughters prophesied in Joel 2:28-29 of which the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) was a type before this great tribulation that is to come. These servants of God are not sons and daughters of the gentile tribes or nations, but from the tribes of Israel, with the tribe of Dan (Genesis 49:16-17) being replaced by one of the two tribes from Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh, who Jacob (Israel) gave a special blessing (Genesis 48).

The 144,000 from the tribes of Israel are sealed before the calamities of last times occur. The reason for their preservation is the sealing of God.

This is not the case with the 144,000 in chapter 14. They are not on the earth at all. They have been raptured out of the earth altogether. Two things are important.

1.) The fact that they are seen not on earth but in heaven signifying rapture.

2.) The timing of their having been taken to heaven.

First how do I know that they are in heaven and not on the earth ?

"And I heard a voice OUT OF HEAVEN like the sound of many waters ... etc." (14:2)

The sound of their singing is heard "out of heaven" (14:2) . They have also been "purchased FROM THE EARTH" (14:4) . They were not only purchased from among men. They are purchased "from the earth".

I say they have been raptured to stand before the Lamb and the four living creatures which John saw in heaven (chapter 4 and 5).

However this alone does not call for them being a different group from the 144,000 in chapter 7 unless the timing of the vision is different. So #2.

2.) The 144,000 in chapter 7 are apparently sealed in order to be preserved THROUGH the damage of the winds (calamities of the last times and great tribulation).

" ... Do not HARM THE EARTH or the sea or the trees UNTIL we seal the slavs of our God upon their foreheads." (7:3)

They should be sealed so that the HARM does not HARM them apparently.

With the 144,000 Firstfruits of chapter 14 they are off the earth before the events of the great tribulation according to the layout of events of the chapter.

Here is how chapter 14 is laid out:

Verses 1- 5 The vision of the 144,000 Firstfruits in Heaven with the Lamb on some heavenly Mount Zion.

Verses 6-7 The proclamation of the eternal gospel to fear God the Creator.

Verse 8 The announcement of the judgment of Religious Babylon

Verse 9 - 12 The warning of earth dwellers not to worship Antichrist or his image.

Verse 13 The promise of blessing to the martyrs during the great tribulation.

Verses 14 -16 The Harvest of "ripe" believers at the end of the great tribulation.

Verses 17 - 20 The gathering of the grapes of wrath for the battle of Amegeddon at the end of the great tribulation.

It should be seen that the specific details which reveal the contents of the great triblation all follow the scene of the 144,000 Firstfruits already raptured into Heaven.

For these reasons the 144,000 preserved THROUGH the great tribulation (ch. 7) is probably a different group than the 144,000 purchased off the earth before the great tribulation (ch.14).

The Joel reference I may comment on latter.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] Not exactly. I believe the 144,000 mentioned in chapter 14 are the same ones mentioned in chapter 7. These 144,000 are the sons and daughters prophesied in Joel 2:28-29 of which the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) was a type before this great tribulation that is to come. These servants of God are not sons and daughters of the gentile tribes or nations, but fore the great tribulation (ch.14).

The Joel reference I may comment on latter.

Don't forget that chapter 14 comes after chapter 7 and is most likely talking about a later time period. Therefore, the 144,000 of chapter 7 that were there before the tribulation could have been raptured perhaps half-way through the tribulation and appeared in heaven in chapter 14. Don't you think something like this is possible? Or maybe they were all killed during the tibulation.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Don't forget that chapter 14 comes after chapter 7 and is most likely talking about a later time period. Therefore, the 144,000 of chapter 7 that were there before the tribulation could have been raptured perhaps half-way through the tribulation and appeared in heaven in chapter 14. Don't you think something like this is possible? Or maybe they were all killed during the tibulation.

Amazing how you can preach on some passages but are an apologist on others like the ones that show women to be on a lower plane than men, and that from your god. And you think it ok.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Amazing how you can preach on some passages but are an apologist on others like the ones that show women to be on a lower plane than men, and that from your god. And you think it ok.

I think it is just your misunderstanding. You can't comprehend the spiritual things and dedications to God. Why you think you have any knowledge of spirituality is amusing at best.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I think it is just your misunderstanding. You can't comprehend the spiritual things and dedications to God. Why you think you have any knowledge of spirituality is amusing at best.

Another oxymoron in the Paulism religion, Spirituality. You wouldn't know spirituality if it came up an slapped you on the face. Your religion is anything BUT spiritual. It is a political movement, nothing more.