Preach to us on these Bible passages

It would be nice if everything written was perfectly clear to everyone, but it appears it was not meant to be that way.

It would be nice if everything written was perfectly clear to everyone, but it appears it was not meant to be that way.

We know in part and prophesy in part.

Here are a few questions that I would consider about what at least I explained.

1.) I said that the layout of chapter 14 shows the Firstfruits raptured and standing on some Mount Zion in Heaven and THEN all the events of the great tribulation are enumerated ?

How can I be so sure about that ? Chapter 13 preceeds 14 and speaks about Antichrist too and all the things he will do.

I would challenge my assumption that 14 is that self contained corner study of the great tribulation time. Doesn't it read as a chronological continuation of chapter 13 ?

2.) I said that "those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus" really indicates a twosome - the 144,000 and the Christians.

How do I know that ? Maybe it is simply ONE group of Christians who keep the commandments of God.

This needs to be examined. You see, I really am just for seeking out the true meaning as much as God will permit.

These are questions that I ask myself.

3.) What ground do I have to say the phrase "the great tribulation" in chapter 7 could mean anything other than that great tribulation in the last portion of the present age as is mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew ?

In another post I may address how I would answer these problematic areas of what I have explained.

Originally posted by sonship

It would be nice if everything written was perfectly clear to everyone, but it appears it was not meant to be that way.

We know in part and prophesy in part.

Here are a few questions that I would consider about what at least I explained.

1.) I said that the layout of chapter 14 shows the Firstfruits raptured and standing on so ...[text shortened]... her post I may address how I would answer these problematic areas of what I have explained.

Mount Zion is a hill in Jerusalem just outside the walls of the Old City.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Zion

Originally posted by RJHinds
Mount Zion is a hill in Jerusalem just outside the walls of the Old City.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Zion

I am aware of that Mount Zion is a hill physically in the Holy Land.

The fact remains that the voice of the singing of the 144,000 is heard by John "out of heaven" (14:2).

The fact remains that there on that Mount Zion appear also "the four living creatures and the elders" (14:3) .

The fact remains that they are said to be purchased not only "from among men" (14:4) but also "purchased from the earth" (14:3)

What am I to do?
As often the things in heaven are represented by things on earth, ie. the tabernacle and ark, might not also Mount Zion have some corresponding heavenly reality ?

Ie. "And the temple of God WHICH IS IN HEAVEN was opened, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple; " (Rev. 11:19a)

Originally posted by sonship
I am aware of that Mount Zion is a hill physically in the Holy Land.

The fact remains that the voice of the singing of the 144,000 is heard by John [b]"out of heaven" (14:2).

The fact remains that there on that Mount Zion appear also "the four living creatures and the elders" (14:3) .

The fact remains that they are said to be pu ...[text shortened]... N was opened, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple; " (Rev. 11:19a) [/b][/b]

Well, then perhaps the 144,000 is not a real number but a symbolic number representing something in heaven too.

Well, then perhaps the 144,000 is not a real number but a symbolic number representing something in heaven too.

For certain it is a symbolic number.

The use of a specific number seems the Holy Spirit's way of assuring us that a remnant or SOME experience this or that matter.

I don't think only virgin men (14:4) will be raptured before the great tribulation and stand with Christ in the third heavens. Maybe far more than 144,000 will suddenly not be found on the earth.

At the same time it is not unreasonable for God to assure those who have given absolutely their entire lives to love and follow Jesus above what was their legal rightful pleasure, to be singled out as Firstfruits to God for God's satisfaction.

Consider that if there are NO people in Heaven right now save Jesus, then for these 144,000 to follow Christ into rapture in the church age IS a unique experience. Thus they sing a unique SONG which no one else except those who share their experience, can sing.

I don't think we have to worry if we are one of those 144,000 Firstfruits. I do think that we should want to be pleasing to the Lord and be raptured before the world wide trial.

To do so is really an act of obedience to the command of Christ.

Ie. "But be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape all these things and stand before the Son of Man." (Luke 21:36)

So the response of obedience to the common believer is to be diligent and watchful in his or her spiritual walk, beseeching the Lord to be found worthy to escape the great tribulation.

It is not a matter of cowardice. It is the response of obedience to want to be found standing before the Son of Man in Heaven rather than under the persecution of the coming Antichrist.

Originally posted by sonship

Well, then perhaps the 144,000 is not a real number but a symbolic number representing something in heaven too.

For certain it is a symbolic number.

The use of a specific number seems the Holy Spirit's way of assuring us that a remnant or SOME experience this or that matter.

I don't think only virgin men [b](14:4) will be ra ...[text shortened]... efore the Son of Man in Heaven rather than under the persecution of the coming Antichrist.[/b]

If it is all symbolic of something heavenly and spiritual, then it is unlikely that any of us humans will be able to be sure as to its meaning as earthly beings unless the Holy Spirit supernaturally reveals it to us. And then it would be doubtful if we could explain the spiritual to a natural man, as twhitehead wishes, without the Holy Spirit opening up all our understandings.

Originally posted by RJHinds
If it is all symbolic of something heavenly and spiritual, then it is unlikely that any of us humans will be able to be sure as to its meaning as earthly beings unless the Holy Spirit supernaturally reveals it to us. And then it would be doubtful if we could explain the spiritual to a natural man, as twhitehead wishes, without the Holy Spirit opening up all our understandings.

The Numeric Bible is a long classic treatise by Bullinger on the various significances of numbers in the Bible.

It will teach you more about number usage than you can handle.

I enthusiatically bought a copy. But I found it very long reading that I would rather refer to as the need arises.

Then self examination:

Here are a few questions that I would consider about what at least I explained.

1.) I said that the layout of chapter 14 shows the Firstfruits raptured and standing on some Mount Zion in Heaven and THEN all the events of the great tribulation are enumerated ?

How can I be so sure about that ? Chapter 13 preceeds 14 and speaks about Antichrist too and all the things he will do.

The concept of victorious overcomers is seen in a number of places in Revelation. These are visions of believers who have through God's grace, risen to the challenges in the world.

They prevail rather than are defeated.
They are normal rather than abnormal.
They avail themselves of victory through being one with the Victor Christ.

The rhythm of there existence is seen in the seven promises in Revelation 2 and 3 to "him who overcomes"

The church in Ephesus - "To him who overcomes ..." (2:7)
The church in Smyrna - "He who overcomes ..." (2:11)
The church in Pergamos - "To him who overcomes ..." (2:17)
The church in Thyatira - "And he who overcomes ..." (2:26)
The church in Sardis - "He who overcomes ... " (3:5)
The church in Philadelphia - "He who overcomes ... " (3:12)
The church in Laodicea - "He who overcomes ... " (3:21)

The term overcomers I cannot find in the Bible.
The nearest I can see is "more than conquerors" in Romans chapter 9.

Anyway overcomers are not above the standard expected by God.
They simply rise TO the standard expected by God in view of the all sufficient grace He has provided them in Christ.

Now the overcomers at the end of the tribulation who have overcome the Antichrist are seen in Revelation 15 standing on the glassy sea mingled with fire -

"And I saw as it were a glassy sea mingled with fire and those who come away victorious from the beast and from his image and from the number of his name standing on the glassy sea, having harps of God.

And they sing the song of Moses, the slave of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and wonderful are Your works, Lord God the Almighty! Righteous and true are Your ways, O King of the nations!

Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; for all the nations will come and worship before You, for Your righteous judgments have been manifested." (15:2-4)

These are the late overcomers who overcame the intense persecution of Antichrist described in chapters 13 and 14. The image, the mark, the number of his name and his demand of all the nations to worship him have been overcome by these standing on the glassy sea mingled with fire.

The imagery is like the Hebrews standing on the shore of the Red Sea in Exodus after Pharoah and his army have been swallowed up in God's judgment.

And the song of Moses and of the Lamb should correspond to the fact that they are of those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus (14:12; 12:17). That is a remant of Jews and the Christians.

These late overcomers came through the great tribulation and were victorious in overcoming the difficult circumstances.

Now what about the Firstfruits of the previous chapter 14?

If the vision of the overcomers standing on the glassy sea in chapter 15 and thier song represent the experience of those passing through the great tribulation then the vision of the Firstfruits in chapter 14 should be those overcomers who were alive before the great tribulation.

It is quite logical. A vision is given of those so pleasing to God before the coming of Antichrist. And a vision is then given of those so pleasing to God having passed through the presence of the Antichrist.

The song is different because the experience is different.

Concerning the 144,000 Firstfruits it says " And they sing a new song before the throne ... and no one could learn the song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who have been purchased from the earth." (14:3)

The late overcomers standing on the glassy sea mingled with fire (ch. 15) - "the song of Moses the slave of God, and the song of the Lamb."

The Firstfruits standing in Heaven on Mt. Zion there (ch. 14) - " ... they sing a new song ... and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand ..." .


You have the victorious believers as Firstfruits raptured before the start of the great tribulation. These are the early ripened ones who preceed the general Harvest. And they, according to the typology, are brought into the very temple and offered for God's satisfaction.

You have also the victorious believers who stand on the glassy lake of fire sea of God's judgment as the Hebrews stood on the shore of the Red Sea. These have come through a Red Sea of their own in the time of the great tribulation. And they have come through victorious as overcomers.

Now the glassy sea is the same in concept as that sea of glass seen by John in heaven before the throne of God in Revelation chapter 4 -

Compare -

" And before the throne there was as it were a glassy sea like crystal, ..." (Rev. 4:6)

"And I saw as it were a glassy sea mingled with fire and those who come away victorious from the beast ... standing on the glassy sea ..." (15:2)

This glassy sea represents the judgment of God and becomes the lake of fire.

It is like crystal to indicate that with God everything is crystal clear about what should be judged. And eventually all that should be judged by God is made crystal clear to the believers. They look beneath them and can see clearly as seeing through clear glass what is disapproved by God.

All such things go into the lake of fire. And this same glassy sea is alluded to in the book of Daniel as a river of fire proceeding from the throne of the Ancient of Days - God Almighty:

Daniel 7:9-10 - "I watched Until thrones were set, And the Ancient of Days sat down. His clothing was like white snow, and the hair of His head was like pure wool;

His throne was flames of fire, Its wheels, burning fire.

A stream of fire issued forth and came out from before Him.

Thousands of thousands ministered to Him, and ten thousands of ten thousands stood before Him. The court of judgment sat, and the books were open."

You see this glassy sea and the glassy sea mingled with fire refers back to the stream of judging fire issuing out of the throne of the Most Holy eternal God - the Ancient of Days in Daniel's vision.

The Firstfruits are the early living overcomers who are raptured before the start of the great tribulation. The late overcomers on the glassy sea mingled with fire are those overcomers who came through the great tribulation.

They are also raptured. Surely at martyrdom is probably indicated for 14:12,13. For after the persecution of the Antichrist is mentioned demanding worship it says -

"Here is the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice out of heaven saying, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors, for their works follow with them." (14:12,13)

Originally posted by sonship
[b]The Numeric Bible is a long classic treatise by Bullinger on the various significances of numbers in the Bible.

It will teach you more about number usage than you can handle.

I enthusiatically bought a copy. But I found it very long reading that I would rather refer to as the need arises.[/b]

Do you have any idea what the numbers 12,000 from each tribe of Israel that total 144,000 could represent other than an actual physical number of persons?

Originally posted by RJHinds
Do you have any idea what the numbers 12,000 from each tribe of Israel that total 144,000 could represent other than an actual physical number of persons?

Briefly, 12 is a biblical number associated with God's perfection in administration.

A thousand times that I think must refect a great abundance.

I have heard that seven is number constructed of 3 plus 4 and is related to the Triune God (3) bringing His creation (4) to Himself.

I have further heard that twelve is not the addition of 3 + 6 as in 7 but the mingling and 4 as in 3 x 4.

The three gates of the New Jerusalem appear on four sides. This 3 x 4 is deeper than God the Triune bringing His creation TO Himself. Rather it is God mingling with His creation as four and three would be mingled in multiplicaition.

Sometime seven is also constructed as 1 + 6. That would be something of the ONE unique God added to Man who was created on the sixth day.

This seems a little arbitrary until you check it out in Revelation. Sure enough you have trumpets, seals, and things arranged as 1 + 6 or 6 + 1 and 3 + 4.


This brings me to the 144,000 sealed of the 12 tribes of Israel in chapter 7. My opinion at this point is that these 144,000 may not be regenerated at all as born of God during the time of their sealing. But they will be.

God preserves some who will not be led totally away from Himself. He assures John that the remnant from the twelve tribes will not be forgotten. I am sure this was a comfort to John for John was occupied mainly with the building of the new covenant church.

The use of thousand in 12,000 must relate to a great abundance, super or a thousand fold blessing.

You have the number 144, cubits as 12 times 12 in the wall of the New Jerusalem. The wall signifies protection of God's interests on the earth.
This has something to do with God's perfect administration in eternity being protective of God's interesrts on the earth.

The wall keeps all things contrary to His will OUT and preserves His interests within.

Without further study that is all I think to submit right now. And please fellowship what you think about this.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Preach to us about Leviticus 27 verse 2 through 7, example, 27-5: A male from the age of 5 to 20 is worth 20 shekels. A female of the same age range is worth half of that, 10 shekels. Preach to us about that verse. I'd love to hear the rational behind that, given that god itself said that.

First, this idea of dedicating something to God was indeed a way to compensate the priests for the work they did (and for the fact that they had no land of their own). So, when these values were set, it said nothing about the value to God, but rather their value to the priests and to their families.

People dedicated to God performed many physical tasks for the priests so that they could attend to their spiritual work and men could do more tasks which required greater strength, so they were more valuable to the priests. They were also the ones who carried on the family name which was extremely important in that society and thus they were also more valuable to the family. Therefore the difference in the redemption prices.

Originally posted by sonship
Briefly, 12 is a biblical number associated with God's perfection in administration.

A thousand times that I think must refect a great abundance.

I have heard that seven is number constructed of 3 plus 4 and is related to the Triune God (3) bringing His creation (4) to Himself.

I have further heard that twelve is not the addition of 3 + 6 as in ...[text shortened]... dy that is all I think to submit right now. And please fellowship what you think about this.

I am still having trouble understanding why the 144,000 do not represent the same 144,000 mentioned in chapter 7 regardless if it is symbolic or not.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Well, then perhaps the 144,000 is not a real number but a symbolic number representing something in heaven too.

So some of the bible can be symbolic?
What a hypocrite you are!!

Remember this?
We young earthers have chosen to believe the Holy Bible

Believe the bits you want and discard the rest as symbolic?
Who are you to decide?
A fool, hypocrite, cheat and liar.

I am still having trouble understanding why the 144,000 do not represent the same 144,000 mentioned in chapter 7 regardless if it is symbolic or not.

My interpretation of this matter is not infallible.

But it seems to me that you have one group in chapter 7 sealed in order to be protected from the harm about to be unleashed. And you have another group removed from the earth before the harm is underway.

I guess the problem is that some are not convinced that the Firstfruits have been raptured before the great tribulation.

Since the ones who were said to be sealed in chapter 7 are explicitly also said to be exempted from the harm of the locusts of the fifth trumpet, it is evident that they are on earth during the great tribulation.

This is very clear in (9:4).

I suppose that if I really wanted to convince you I would have to labor more on demonstrating that the 144,000 Firstfruits are no where around upon the earth during this same time.

What would be your non circular reasoning be that I should regard the Firstfruits as being on the earth duing that same time as the blasting of the fifth trumpet?

My interpretation is not infallible and I am opened to explore your objection there. Maybe there is no way to absolutely deny that the Firstfruit rapture could be mid tribulation.

I'll think on it today.