-Removed-This paragraph and sentence:
How can a god of "pure goodness" who's "mercy endures FOREVER" (see my posts on this scripture near the start of the thread) create and (importantly) sustain a place of ETERNAL suffering for that group of individuals for whom he came and died to redeem because he "loved them so much", and then stand and watch with his angels as the billions of people are broiled alive in what must be the single (and yet eternal) most horrendous act of malicious deliberate violence ever.
It is completely against the nature of god and the whole point of the gospel.
The words of Psalm 136 about His mercy enduing forever are very comforting. But what if His mercy is refused forever?
My RcV says repeatedly "His lovingkindness is forever".
His mercy endures forever. But I pointed out to you God removed His mercy from King Saul. And no one became more pitiful than King Saul, IMO. Even the witch of Endor had to cheer him up and say "Hey its not that bad." He tried with tears to repent. But then went right back to the same thing - trying to murder his percieved rival David. Tis a pitiful story.
God removed His mercy from Saul. He says so.
That's pitiful, when a witch cheers you up under God's punishment.
The passage of Revelation 14 speaks of the wrath undiluted. The implication is that sometime God's anger is tempered or mixed with mercy as an ingredient. The warning to the followers of Antichrist is that the wrath of God is not mixed with any mercy. It is undiluted, 100% proof anger of God.
So I wrote that I think the Scriptures reveal this rather than the view which gives rise to your question - "How could God EVER do such a thing as torment forever ?"
Clearer now ?
Divegeester,
Do you think that Satan will ever be a part of the Bride of Christ?
All the redeemed of Christ become His Wife to correspond to Him, marry Him in a love union. That is the final result of His salvation (Rev. 21,22)
Do you believe that Satan will be a part of that Bride and Wife of Christ?
-Removed-
There is no BUT. Is there?
There is the twofoldedness of divine truth.
Have you ever read that article The Twofoldedness of Divine Truth by Robert Govette. You should read it. Here's a portion.
Yet it must not be forgotten or denied that there are continually exhibited within its pages truths seemingly opposed to each other. To trace out some of these and set them before the reader, with the ground on which they are to be received, is the main object of this booklet.
The twofoldness of truth as offered to our view in Holy Writ is one strong argument of its not being the work of man. It is the glory of man’s intellect to produce oneness. His aim is to trace different results to one principle, to clear it of ambiguities, to show how, through varied appearances, one law holds. Anything that stands in the way of the completeness of this, he eludes or denies, as something destructive of the glory and of the efficiency of his discovery.
But it is not so with God. In nature He is continually acting with two seemingly opposed principles. What keeps the planets moving in beauteous order around the sun? Not one force, but two—two forces pulling each particle of matter in two opposite directions at the same instant. Leave our earth to one of these and it would fly away into infinite space. Give undivided scope to the other, and the globe would soon be drawn down to the surface of the sun.
Regardless of your position this is vital article which aids in the balanced understanding many important truths in God's word.
Here's a link to The Twofoldedness of Divine Truth by R Govette.
http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/Geisler-Rhodes/Govett-twofoldness.html
The "buts" are just sonship trying to find reasons why God's mercy will NOT endure forever. The psalm states the the LORD'S mercy endures FOREVER... And the scriptures call you out over this, but you REFUSE to see.
I told readers before, that though there is out there somewhere a terminal point to God's forebearance, I expect we will be surprised at some things.
There is a terminal point to God's forebearance and longsuffering. It probably is beyond what we would imagine. But there is a terminal point.
You cannot say that God's mercy will endure forever for those who are annihilated, if that is what you believe. If you teach that this lake of fire is the punishment of extinction out of existence of the unrecoverable, than you cannot at the same time say His mercy endured forever towards those who are judged to go there.
Neither can you say that God's mercy endures forever upon something that does NOT EXIST. God can neither punish nor have mercy upon a non-being, non-existent person.
So I AMEN Psalm 136 very much. But I cannot stretch its meaning out without consideration of "AGAIN ... it is written".
In a future post I may say something else about the "unknowns" of His way.
IE. Jesus said Matthew 10:15
New International Version
Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
New Living Translation
I tell you the truth, the wicked cities of Sodom and Gomorrah will be better off than such a town on the judgment day.
English Standard Version
Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.
New American Standard Bible
"Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.
The implication of this saying is one of two things:
1.) The day of judgment is not specified and there will be more than one.
2.) There will be degrees of severity rendering the Sodomites more tolerable in what they did than that town Jesus is scolding.
God is a perfect Judge. He will neither do too much nor too little.
God will do the exact appropriate thing in the right way. But the implication of Matthew 10:15 is, I think, that there are some unknowns about His coming methods.
Having acknowledged this I believe there still is a terminal point represented in Revelation 20:15 - "And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."
So the more you argue with me "God is GREAT in mercy" I would agree that He is so more than I can imagine. Still, there is terminal point beyond which the recipient of His merciful longsuffering cannot be recovered.
-Removed-
No, of course not.
Good grief! Why must me contending with you over your horrendous warped view of God's mercy mean that I must in some way be a completely off the rails. You are either drowning in your own "self anointed" smugness (credit elsewhere for that term) or you simply cannot fathom what I'm talking about. Either way I'm astonished that you would ask such a thing.
Maybe it was not a good question to ask an Annhilationist. But it is a logical question to ask a Universalist.
A Universalist would say of course ALL will be saved. So she or he would include Satan. So, I accept your retort that you are not advocating universalism.
So I suppose then what you teach is that Satan will be annhilated into nothingness, non-being and be punished with no longer existing. If that is the case God's mercy did not endure FOREVER over such a being. So we could not use Psalm 136 to prove that this great enemy of God will forever be under God's mercy.
Don't be annoyed at me. It is just logical.
Now, in Revelation 16 we see some rebels who are in extremely bad suffering. Why does Scripture reveal to us their reaction? They REFUSE to give God glory or repent of their sins.
"And the fourth poured out his bowl upon the sun; and it was given to it to burn men with fire. And men were burned with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has the authority over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory." (Rev. 16:9)
"And great hail, every stone about the weight of a talent, came down out of heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague of it is exceedingly great." (Rev. 16:21)
"And the fifth poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast and his kingdom became darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain and blasphemed the God of heaven for their pains and for their sores; and they did not repent of their works." (Rev. 16:10,11)
Apparently, these followers of Satan and of Antichrist love their revolt against God more than the absence of punishing. So thoroughly saturated with the Satanic revolt are they that they would not relinquish the pleasure of being against God for any amount of His punishing that such a road cannot be anything but a curse.
I ask myself why these passages have to be told us. They must be to show that sinners can be hardened against God to an irrecoverable extent.
"And I heard the angel who had power over the waters saying, You are righteous, who is and who was, the Holy One, because You have judged these things; For they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, ...
And I heard the altar saying, Yes, Lord God the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments."
True and Righteous are the description of the end of God's mercy here.
He has had enough. God has had enough.
It took a long time to get to this point. Maybe over millions of years.
But the point arrives. And for Him not to judge would not be righteous of Him.
And for Him not to finally keep the word of His warning is for Him to make Himself a liar. God cannot die. God cannot lie. His omnipotence does not mean that He cannot do certain things. And He cannot fail to keep His word of promise - positively with mercy or negatively with final justice.
So we need to be in Christ.
Originally posted by DeepThought
Wow, that must be the shortest point you've ever made. I'm not accusing Jesus of anything. I just don't think that your conception of eternal hell-fire makes any sense. In the event that you are right and God does exist then the end of all things would represent perfection. Hell is the opposite of perfection so it can't persist.
Wow, that must be the shortest point you've ever made.
No. I think my shortest point has been "Jesus is Lord."
I'm not accusing Jesus of anything. I just don't think that your conception of eternal hell-fire makes any sense. In the event that you are right and God does exist then the end of all things would represent perfection. Hell is the opposite of perfection so it can't persist.
I think God perhaps had three alternatives to choose before creation of anyone or anything.
1.) He could not create anything, but continue in His Divine sufficiency and solitariness as Father, Son, Holy Spirit - the Triune God.
2.) He could create only such beings as shall move automatically in line with His will, without any possibility of deviation from His will.
3.) He could create and grant to angels, other creatures and men the dignity of freedom of choice, freedom of action, though He foresaw that many created lives would abuse this freedom and rebel against their Creator, with a dire and endless result.
Apparently, the third alternative He chose. And he did so in a way so that ALL such rebels could be subsumed into one grand repository - following a perfect (yet self willed) being that initiated an all out revolt into eternity.
So I think the perfection which I contemplate includes also that perfect justice to such an opposition party headed up forever by one Satan.
Originally posted by sonshipIt's the same kind of interpersonal ugliness that perpetuates psychological bullying and domestic violence. Sounds absolutely like a man made notion. I hold it in contempt. I find it impossible to believe.
If a person is scared of eternal fire and because of that says "Lord Jesus, please save me from eternal fire" that is not to be held in contempt in the least.
Originally posted by FMFThis caricature and accusation of God stands as a testament of how deceived the fallen soul of Adam's race can be.
It's the same kind of interpersonal ugliness that perpetuates psychological bullying and domestic violence. Sounds absolutely like a man made notion. I hold it in contempt. I find it impossible to believe.
