-Removed-My reference to forgiveness was the need for it common to all people. Who has not felt mistreated?
It was not particularly related to this forum. Don't miss the point there.
What you describe is not "forgiveness"! This is a smug self-satisfaction that enables you to relax in the knowledge that anyone who "mistreats" you will be fried for eternity.
No it is not smug self-satisfaction. It is adherence to a number of clear exhortations from the New Testament.
The same Christ who said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" as they nailed His hands and feet to the cross, now is the Spirit that lives in me.
And when I turned to Him His grace empowers me to forgive. The Apostle Peter spoke of Christ -
"[Christ] Who committed no sin, nor was guile found in His mouth; Who being reviled did not revile in return; suffering, He did not threaten but kept committing all to Him who judges righteously." (1 Peter 2:23,24)
So this Christian reaction to offense is not whispering "O yea? You're gonna get yours in hell fire boy!"
Rather it is forgiving and "committing all to Him who judges righteously." If you are a Christian, then I think that you have experienced this sometime. So why not me too?
-Removed-I hear you saying that you have at no time believed in eternal punishment of suffering.
But I think what is more likely is what is indicated in Second Timothy 4:3
English Standard Version
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
New American Standard Bible
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
However, there can be abuse on either side of a New Testament truth. And others wanting teachers to stress things like the Westboro Baptist Church stress, abuse the passages on the other side.
When James and John wanted to call fire down from heaven on a town which rejected Christ's preaching, He rebuked them. He said He came not to destroy men's lives but to save them. He said that they did not know of what spirit they were.
So their can be turning away from the truth on either side of that truth.
And we have to often as Christians, be careful of overreaction to error.
Satan usually sends error into the world in pairs of opposing lies.
This way he can catch people in one extreme or the other.
-Removed-FMF is attempting to put words into my mouth.
First, I am able through His grace to forgive, because I realize that I am only a sinner myself - saved by grace.
I could right now be in the damnation where it not for the prayers of some and God's visitation to give me the ability to believe into Jesus.
This realization effects my attitude. What others have done, I know I ALSO have done. Empathy is an important ingredient of forgiveness.
And Peter said to follow the example of Jesus who at severe offense of reviling and torture "kept committing to Him who judges righteously." .
Now what I think you may look at several times is what Revelation 20:15 says -
"And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."
Maybe that is what you should read several times before being baffled at me. I will speak to this passage more latter.
Originally posted by sonshipNot so. The words are your own:
FMF is attempting to put words into my mouth.
Actually, the teaching of God's terrible final calling of all people to an account of some kind helps me greatly in the matter of forgiving my enemies and those who mistreat me. The idea of the awefulness of God's judgment when negative, carries a great benefit to my present day Christian walk. I can forgive those who have mistreated me because I know that all final vengence is God's.
It's the deepest, darkest, most despicable place you've personally taken your ideology, as far as I can remember.
If anyone believes sonship's 'defence' that I am somehow putting words in his mouth, just read his last post on the previous page [Page 8].
I am another that does not subscribe to "eternal torture, agony, etc". I simply believe that the bible has been misinterpreted by many on this subject.
For further study I suggest you can start here...
http://www.truthortradition.com/articles/what-is-hell
I have posted this article before, but it is not the end of the topic by any means. There is much more out there to study.
Having said that, I disagree with some of you going into "attack mode" on Sonship.
While I disagree with him on eternal damnation, it is not what this op was intended for.
It was intended to show examples of God's Goodness and kindness to mankind, and I have thoroughly enjoyed his examples thus far.
Why does it seem like we turn every op to Hell, OSAS, etc? I know, I am guilty of this too, just want to let everyone know that it is refreshing to some of us to read an op intended to show God's character for a change.
Sonship and I do not share the same views on every thing either, but I am still honored to call him a brother, as well as those of you who consider Jesus Christ Lord of your lives.
In the end, even if I am proved wrong about hell or some other disagreement, SO WHAT?
God is not going to judge me on this or that, He is simply going to ask, as some one once said, "What did you do with my Son?"
God's kindness through David.
A. David's kind heart towards the house of Saul.
1. (1) David's kind question.
Now David said, "Is there still anyone who is left of the house of Saul, that I may show him kindness for Jonathan's sake?"
a. Is there still anyone who is left of the house of Saul: In 1 Samuel 7 David asked, "What can I do for God?" and he proposed to build a temple for the Lord. Now David asked another question we should each ask: "What can I do for others?"
David's question showed a great love because Saul made himself an enemy of David. It was customary in those days for the king of a new dynasty to completely massacre anyone connected with the prior dynasty. David went against the principle of revenge and against the principle of self-preservation and asked what he could do for the family of his enemy.
b. That I may show him kindness for Jonathan's sake: David did this because he remembered his relationship and covenant with Jonathan (1 Samuel 20:14-15). His actions were not only based on feelings, but also on the promise of a covenant.
2. (2-4) Ziba, a former servant of Saul, tells David about Mephibosheth, son of Jonathan.
And there was a servant of the house of Saul whose name was Ziba. So when they had called him to David, the king said to him, "Are you Ziba?" And he said, "At your service!" Then the king said, "Is there not still someone of the house of Saul, to whom I may show the kindness of God?" And Ziba said to the king, "There is still a son of Jonathan who is lame in his feet." So the king said to him, "Where is he?" And Ziba said to the king, "Indeed he is in the house of Machir the son of Ammiel, in Lo Debar."
a. Ziba: David could only learn that there was a descendant of Saul still living and could only learn where he was through this servant named Ziba. This meant that Mephibosheth was in hiding.
b. The kindness of God: This phrase is key to understanding David's motivation in this chapter. David wanted to show someone else the same kindness God showed to him.
c. There is still a son of Jonathan who is lame in his feet: We first learned of Mephibosheth in 2 Samuel 4:4. It tells us that this son of Jonathan was made lame in his feet from an accident when they heard that his father Jonathan and his grandfather Saul died in battle.
We should remember why Mephibosheth's nurse gathered the boy and fled in haste at the news of Saul and Jonathan's death. She rightly feared that the leader of a new royal dynasty would execute every potential heir of the former dynasty (2 Samuel 4:4).
d. A son of Jonathan: This means that according to the prior dynasty of Saul, Mephibosheth had the right to the throne. He was a son of the first-born son of the king, and other potential heirs were dead. In a political sense David could see Mephibosheth as a rival or a threat.
Later in 2 Samuel 16:5-8 we see a man named Shimei who was a partisan for the house of Saul against David. There were at least a few in Israel who felt that the house of Saul should still reign over the nation and that David shouldn't be king. Mephibosheth might draw upon these partisans and develop a rival following.
Ishbosheth was Mephibosheth's uncle, and he waged a bloody war against David for the throne of Israel. There was at least an outside chance that Mephibosheth might do the same.
e. He is in the house of Machir the son of Ammiel: This speaks of Mephibosheth's low station in life. He didn't even have his own house. Instead, he lived in the house of another man.
Machir the son of Ammiel later showed he was intensely loyal to David. When David's son Absalom led a rebellion against David, Machir supported and helped David at great danger to himself (2 Samuel 17:27-29).
B. David's kindness to Mephibosheth.
1. (5-6) Mephibosheth makes a humble appearance before David.
Then King David sent and brought him out of the house of Machir the son of Ammiel, from Lo Debar. Now when Mephibosheth the son of Jonathan, the son of Saul, had come to David, he fell on his face and prostrated himself. Then David said, "Mephibosheth?" And he answered, "Here is your servant!"
a. Then King David sent and brought him out of the house: Mephibosheth must have been terrified when messengers from David knocked at his door and demanded that he come with them to see the king. In the back of his mind he anticipated the day when David would do as other kings did and massacre every potential rival to his throne.
The knock on the door also meant that Mephibosheth was no longer hidden from David. He felt secure as long as he believed the new king didn't know about him.
b. He fell on his face and prostrated himself: According to the custom of the times, Mephibosheth had a lot to fear from David. Yet his fear of David was not founded in fact, only on assumption.
Up to this point Mephibosheth and David never had a relationship, and it was because Mephibosheth wanted it that way. He avoided David out of unfounded fears.
2. (7-8) David removes the fears of Mephibosheth.
So David said to him, "Do not fear, for I will surely show you kindness for Jonathan your father's sake, and will restore to you all the land of Saul your grandfather; and you shall eat bread at my table continually." Then he bowed himself, and said, "What is your servant, that you should look upon such a dead dog as I?"
a. Do not fear: These words would be cruel or meaningless unless David gave Mephibosheth a reason to not fear.
b. I will surely show you kindness for Jonathan your father's sake: David made a covenant with Jonathan in 1 Samuel 20, promising to show kindness to the descendents of Jonathan. David gladly made good on his promise, though Jonathan was long dead.
c. Will restore to you all the land of Saul: David simply promised Mephibosheth would receive what was his. Mephibosheth knew about these lands all along but he was afraid to take possession of them because it would expose him before the king. David went against all custom in showing such kindness to an heir of the former dynasty.
d. And you shall eat bread at my table continually: This went far beyond giving Mephibosheth what was rightly his. He gave Mephibosheth the honor of a close relationship with the king.
A similar promise is given to the followers of Jesus. Jesus told the disciples that they would eat and drink at His table in heaven (Luke 22:30).
e. What is your servant, that you should look upon such a dead dog as I? Mephibosheth didn't feel worthy of such generosity. He considered himself a dead dog, meaning a worthless and insignificant person.
All the years of hiding from the king and living in fear and poverty made Mephibosheth think of himself as worthless.
3. (9-12) David's instructions to Ziba.
And the king called to Ziba, Saul's servant, and said to him, "I have given to your master's son all that belonged to Saul and to all his house. You therefore, and your sons and your servants, shall work the land for him, and you shall bring in the harvest, that your master's son may have food to eat. But Mephibosheth your master's son shall eat bread at my table always." Now Ziba had fifteen sons and twenty servants. Then Ziba said to the king, "According to all that my lord the king has commanded his servant, so will your servant do." "As for Mephibosheth," said the king, "he shall eat at my table like one of the king's sons." Mephibosheth had a young son whose name was Micha. And all who dwelt in the house of Ziba were servants of Mephibosheth.
a. You therefore, and your sons and your servants, shall work the land for him: In addition to the land, David gave Mephibosheth servants to work the land. The food from the land was for Mephibosheth's family, because he now ate at David's table.
b. He shall eat at my table like one of the king's sons: Mephibosheth was happy to know that David didn't want to kill him. To have a promise like this was almost unbelievable.
4. (13) David fulfills his promise to Mephibosheth.
So Mephibosheth dwelt in Jerusalem, for he ate continually at the king's table. And he was lame in both his feet.
a. Mephibosheth dwelt in Jerusalem: No longer hiding in fear of the king, this descendant of Saul now lived openly among the people of God.
b. He ate continually at the king's table: No longer in poverty and estranged from the king, now he had great privilege before the king.
c. He was lame in both his feet: Mephibosheth's weakness did not vanish. His life was far better, but he was still lame.
David's grace to Mephibosheth is a wonderful picture of God's grace to us. We are Mephibosheth.
http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/1009.htm
Originally posted by FMFI wrote:
I can forgive those who have mistreated me because I know that all final vengence is God's.
FMF seems to take this as me saying "I am eager for my enemies to be damned." Neither is that forgiveness. But that is a misunderstanding of what I wrote.
There is nothing in this sentence which indicates eagerness on my part that anyone be tortured.
It is a simple and biblical acknowledgement that the one who balances the scales is God.
Put it this way. If someone came and murdered my wife would I still be able to share with him that there is eternal redemption in believing in the Son of God? Or would I shut up my compassion in revenge and hope he never hears the gospel ?
Well, I have not ever been in that situation. But as I have been taught to be a disciple of Jesus I think that by His grace I would be willing to tell the murderer the good news of faith in Christ.
This is the essence of the sentence FMF wishes to twist to prove my eagerness to have God destroy personal enemies.
Actually, the teaching of God's terrible final calling of all people to an account of some kind helps me greatly in the matter of forgiving my enemies and those who mistreat me. The idea of the awefulness of God's judgment when negative, carries a great benefit to my present day Christian walk. I can forgive those who have mistreated me because I know that all final vengence is God's.
What I should have pointed out is that awefulness of God's judgment when negative ALSO fell on Christ in His redemptive act at Calvary.
I did not mean that only the last Judgement at the end of history is aweful to the lost. I mean also Christ's substutionary sacrifice to bear the wrath of God on behalf of the world was aweful. And I am satisfied that as it was accomplished for me SO ALSO it was accomplished for my enemies.
The time the Son of God suffered and died for the sins of the world were also " final vengence " on behalf of all sinners who believe in Him. I want my enemy to have that chance to have Christ as his substitute.