Pure Goodness

Originally posted by FMF
[b]No need to go back several years.
1.) Could there possibly be a greatest offense?

This one takes the biscuit: I think the ideology of torturing billions of people in burning agony for eternity for not believing something could be the deepest, darkest, greatest possible evil thing I have ever heard anyone come up with and the greatest moral "offence" I ...[text shortened]... ntered.

2.) What joy do you have that could improve my "joyless" faith in Christ?

[/b]

This one takes the biscuit: I think the ideology of torturing billions of people in burning agony for eternity for not believing something could be the deepest, darkest, greatest possible evil thing I have ever heard anyone come up with and the greatest moral "offence" I have ever encountered.

So you must hold God as the greatest offender against good.
So you must be of higher righteousness than God.
And somehow I have to believe that what the Creator did not have enough of, His creature - you, somehow obtained from somewhere MORE of.

Secondly, I have to believe that rejecting the highest Authority is reduced to "not believing something."

Evidently, a sin against God's holiness is easier to forgive than a sin against God's authority. This unbelief must be not just "not believing in something" as you say but a unreconciled rejection of the Most High.

I have to choose which is more likely - Your judgment of God as the greatest offender or God's judgment of the unrecoverable unbeliever.

I think I should choose that God's judgment is just, and your condemnation of God as the greatest sinner is not true.

But you can have that belief if you wish - of you being qualified to condemn God as the greatest offender of good. Perhaps you too would have been in the crowd yelling "Crucify, Crucify Him" for speaking as He did about the need to believe that we might not perish.

As for the torture part - I think if I harbored a thought that I was more right than God, and it were not true, today it would be a bothering discomfort. But perhaps unchecked, in a million years it would grow into an agonizing self consuming "fire" eating me up.

It is possible that the "fire" really speaks of not only joylessness but an unchecked, out of control and malignant self hatred and hatred for one's Creator.

I think God is sad about it. He takes no delight in the death of the wicked.
But to those who will not say "Your will be done" He finally will let them have their self chosen way and say - "Then your will be done."

Ghastly is not at all a improper word to describe this ultimate self chosen sentence and its result.

Originally posted by sonship
So you must hold God as the greatest offender against good.

What "God" is that? Haven't you read a word I have said? You are being so disingenuous. The human ideology I described is the most wicked dehumanizing notion that I have ever encountered.

Originally posted by sonship

So you must be of higher righteousness than God.
And somehow I have to believe that what the Creator did not have enough of, [b]His creature - you, somehow obtained from somewhere MORE of.

Secondly, I have to believe that rejecting the highest Authority is reduced to "not believing something."

Evidently, a sin against God's holiness is easier to forgive than a sin against God's authority. This unbelief must be not just "not believing in something" as you say but a unreconciled rejection of the Most High.

I have to choose which is more likely - Your judgment of God as the greatest offender or God's judgment of the unrecoverable unbeliever.

I think I should choose that God's judgment is just, and your condemnation of God as the greatest sinner is not true.

But you can have that belief if you wish - of you being qualified to condemn God as the greatest offender of good. Perhaps you too would have been in the crowd yelling [b]"Crucify, Crucify Him" for speaking as He did about the need to believe that we might not perish.

As for the torture part - I think if I harbored a thought that I was more right than God, and it were not true, today it would be a bothering discomfort. But perhaps unchecked, in a million years it would grow into an agonizing self consuming "fire" eating me up.

It is possible that the "fire" really speaks of not only joylessness but an unchecked, out of control and malignant self hatred and hatred for one's Creator.

I think God is sad about it. He takes no delight in the death of the wicked.
But to those who will not say "Your will be done" He finally will let them have their self chosen way and say - "Then your will be done."

Ghastly is not at all a improper word to describe this ultimate self chosen sentence and its result.

This is you in hair dryer mode. Everything you say presupposes that I somehow accept and believe the same things as you and that I accept your characterization of God.

Originally posted by sonship
I have to believe that rejecting the highest Authority is reduced to "not believing something."

What I reject is your characterization of "the highest Authority".

Originally posted by sonship
I have to choose which is more likely - Your judgment of God as the greatest offender or God's judgment of the unrecoverable unbeliever.

sonship, you don't "have to choose" anything on account of me. What I reject is your characterization of an "unrecoverable unbeliever". What I "judge" is the moral darkness at the heart of your human-made ideology. I deduce that you have nothing truthful or actual to tell me about God.

Originally posted by sonship
But you can have that belief if you wish - of you being qualified to condemn God as the greatest offender of good.

The man made ideology I described is the most wicked dehumanizing notion that I have ever encountered ~ "the greatest offender of good", if you want ~ and I am utterly unconvinced by your characterization of God, regardless of how "glorious" it makes you feel. I do not have to be "qualified" to condemn the wickedness at the epicentre of your beliefs or to state that I find them not credible.

Originally posted by sonship
I think I should choose that God's judgment is just, and your condemnation of God as the greatest sinner is not true.

I reject your characterization of what "God's judgement" is; I have not "[condemned] God as the greatest sinner"; I do not share your belief in these figures or scenarios; you are simply attributing to me some degree of belief in your theological notions and then framing my 'errors' in your own religionist language and jargon. Where have I ever accepted the validity of the concept of "sin" and "sinners"? And yet here you are suggesting that I have condemned "God" as a "sinner".

Originally posted by FMF
The man made ideology I described is the most wicked dehumanizing notion that I have ever encountered ~ "the greatest offender of good", if you want ~ and I am utterly unconvinced by your characterization of God, regardless of how "glorious" it makes you feel. I do not have to be "qualified" to condemn the wickedness at the epicentre of your beliefs or to state that I find them not credible.

The words came out of the mouth of Jesus.
I decide that if Jesus taught it it is to be trusted and it must be right.

There is a kind of approvedness of His life that engenders trust.

Originally posted by sonship
I decide that if Jesus taught it it is to be trusted and it must be right.

If I thought you were right, I'd probably still be a Christian.

Originally posted by FMF
If I thought you were right, I'd probably still be a Christian.

I never got the impression that this matter was the only matter which prompted you to say you are no longer a Christian.

There are Christians that do not believe in eternal damnation - John Stott has dropped the belief I think. Clark Pennock I do believe has turned away from it.

Even I detect that Harald Camping from the early 70s no longer teaches as he did then on the subject.

You have seen Susanne here and Divegester and probably some other evangelicals who have turned away from eternal damnation. I don't see you throwing in your lot with them.

So I think had it not been this matter you would have found something else to rationalize a X Christian status.

Actually, the teaching of God's terrible final calling of all people to an account of some kind helps me greatly in the matter of forgiving my enemies and those who mistreat me.

The idea of the awefulness of God's judgment when negative, carries a great benefit to my present day Christian walk. I can forgive those who have mistreated me because I know that all final vengence is God's. And all deserve to be prayed for to be saved.

This is real forgiveness of others through the fear of God.
Such a belief does great benefit to my, as you put it, "moral compass."

Originally posted by sonship
I never got the impression that this matter was the only matter which prompted you to say you are no longer a Christian.

If I thought you were right about Jesus and God, then I'd probably still be a Christian. You said "I decide that if Jesus taught it it is to be trusted and it must be right". As you know, I lost my faith in the credibility of the Bible. And there can be no Christian faith without the Bible.

Originally posted by sonship
You have seen Susanne here and Divegester and probably some other evangelicals who have turned away from eternal damnation. I don't see you throwing in your lot with them."

The are Christians. I am an ex-Christian. In what way should I 'throw my lot in' with them?

Originally posted by sonship
So I think had it not been this matter you would have found something else to rationalize a X Christian status.

But it's no mystery and no secret, sonship. I don't believe the claims that Christians make about Jesus and God. That is why I am not a Christian. I have said it many times.

Originally posted by sonship

Actually, the teaching of God's terrible final calling of all people to an account of some kind helps me greatly in the matter of forgiving my enemies and those who mistreat me. The idea of the awefulness of God's judgment when negative, carries a great benefit to my present day Christian walk. I can forgive those who have mistreated me because I know that all final vengence is God's.

You feel able to forgive people who mistreat you because you "know" they will be tortured forever in burning agony? Wow.

This is an example of your "moral compass" in action?

Originally posted by sonship
The words came out of the mouth of Jesus.
I decide that if Jesus taught it it is to be trusted and it must be right.

There is a kind of approvedness of His life that engenders trust.

You are grossly mistaken.