Originally posted by AThousandYoung
I didn't say whether or not it was absolutely wrong. If I wanted to answer "no" I would have, just as if you'd wanted to answer "no" to my question you would have. Unless, of course, you're intentionally avoiding doing so and therefore being deceptive.

I simply have no idea what you mean by "absolute".

I simply have no idea what you mean by "absolute".

absolute, in philosophy, the opposite of relative. The term has acquired numerous widely variant connotations in different philosophical systems. It means unlimited, unconditioned, or free of any relation; perfect, complete, or total; permanent, inherent, or ultimate; independent, or valid without reference to a perceiving subject. In epistemology, absolute means certain or indubitable as opposed to probable or hypothetical. As a substantive, the absolute is the ultimate basis of reality, the principle underlying the universe.

http://www.answers.com/absolute

Originally posted by twhitehead
In what way does that statement negate the existence of absolutes?

If there is no right and no wrong it means there are no absolutes.

Did you ever do Maths at school?

Originally posted by stocken
Aeeee! Wrong answer. See, them atheists (and us agnostics) compare
right and wrong to their own experiences and natural desires. We all
have a self-preservation instinct, and we can all relate to people being
in danger (especially defenceless little babies). Compared to that it's
wrong to do what you just suggested.

Now, you may argue that an ath ...[text shortened]... ocial norms and personal experiences slowly shaping our sense
of right and wrong over time.

So you mean to say that there is no absolute right and wrong?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
This is absolutely disingenuous.

One does not need God to have morals. Indeed, "morals", rules which determine how we live are predicted by the theory of evolution. Many, many animals exhibit "moral" behaviour (for example, not killing defeated foes), indeed, humans are less moral than most (for example, torture), which leave your idea of God in trouble.

I was not speaking about morals, even pigs have morals.

Are you going to answer my question or not? Is it absolutely wrong to rape and murder an innocent 2 year old baby? If your answer is yes, then why so? And if your answer is no, then why so?

Originally posted by aardvarkhome
If a muslim asked you: "As a non muslim, would it be [b]absolutely wrong at any time to murder another human being? If so, why?", you would think it a stupid question.

If I pre-supposed that, because you don't share my beliefs, you had no moral standards, you would think me arrogant[/b]

If a muslim asked you: "As a non muslim, would it be absolutely wrong at any time to murder another human being? If so, why?", you would think it a stupid question.

Would you care to explain why I would think that it is a stupid question?

Originally posted by dj2becker
So you mean to say that there is no absolute right and wrong?

Absolutely.

Originally posted by dj2becker
[b]I simply have no idea what you mean by "absolute".

absolute, in philosophy, the opposite of relative. The term has acquired numerous widely variant connotations in different philosophical systems. It means unlimited, unconditioned, or free of any relation; perfect, complete, or total; permanent, inherent, or ultimate; independent, or valid wit ...[text shortened]... asis of reality, the principle underlying the universe.

http://www.answers.com/absolute[/b]

So...which of those connotations were you referring to? Notice that your quote mentions how they are "widely variant".

And how come you're not answering my question?

Originally posted by aardvarkhome
Lets put it another way: Exactly. You don't have anything to compare it to. In other words for the non muslim there would be nothing absolutely wrong with raping and murdering an innocent 2 year old baby. At least you are being honest about it...

It might surprise you that Mohammad taught that it is permissible to rape and murder.

Originally posted by stocken
Absolutely.

And you are absolutely sure about that?

Originally posted by dj2becker
It might surprise you that Mohammad taught that it is permissible to rape and murder.

Oh, really? Did he now? Or are you just tweaking your idea of right and wrong
to be able to slander an entire religion with millions of followers? Thou
shalt not lie, yes?

Originally posted by stocken
Oh, really? Did he now? Or are you just tweaking your idea of right and wrong
to be able to slander an entire religion with millions of followers? Thou
shalt not lie, yes?

But if you do, it's ok. Jesus made it so anything you do wrong is ok because he pardoned you.

Originally posted by dj2becker
And you are absolutely sure about that?

Why? Are you going to tell me that if I'm absolutely sure there's no
"absolute" version of right and wrong, then I'm contradicting myself? Try
another one, 'cause that one just won't work logically.

Yes, I'm absolutely sure there's no absolute right and wrong. If there were,
nature would collapse in matter of years. See, there are times when killing is
necessary. What you suggest about the 2-year old is never necessary, hence
it's always wrong. The act of killing is not always wrong (even you
Christians have to agree to that if you follow your good book), so there's no
absolute moral law imprinted in us that says murder is always wrong.

Originally posted by stocken
Oh, really? Did he now? Or are you just tweaking your idea of right and wrong
to be able to slander an entire religion with millions of followers? Thou
shalt not lie, yes?

The Hadith records the names of at least 27 individuals who were murdered on Muhammad's orders.

Muhammad arranged for practically all the Jews living in Arabia to either be killed or exiled from their homes and country. After murdering individual Jews, Muhammad expelled two tribes from Medina. When they refused Muhammad’s men starved them into submission. After several weeks they surrendered and were expelled. All their belongings and land were confiscated and distributed among Muhammad's supporters. The Jews of Banu Nadir were slaughtered by the Muslims two years later in their new homes.

In AD 626 when Muhammad's followers attacked the tribe of Banu-L-Mustaliq, the Muslims slaughtered many tribesmen and looted thousands of their camels and sheep. They also kidnapped some of their 'excellent women'.

Then Mohammad's followers subjected the captive women to mass gang rape. The Hadith records how some of the Muslims went to Muhammad with a problem.

Abu Sa'id Al-Khadri remembered that they questioned Muhammad on whether it was acceptable to practice sexual intercourse with the captive women by observing 'Azl.

Muhammad's revelations had already sanctioned the rape of captive women, "those whom your right hand possesses" Surah 4:24. On this occasion the only concern seemed to be whether the victim's ransom value would be diminished or lost if they were returned pregnant to their husbands. Muhammad effectively told his companions to go ahead and rape the captive women without worrying about whether or not they would get pregnant.

In AD 627 the Meccans mobilised a huge army of 10,000 men to end the threat of traitors who were disturbing their commerce. The battle of the Ditch around Medina prevented the enemy cavalry from being effectively deployed. As the Meccans withdrew, Muhammad proceeded to attack the last Jewish tribe in Medina, the Banu Qurayzah.

Muhammad ordered the men to convert to Islam or face death. When they refused, up to 900 were decapitated at the ditch, in front of their wives and children. The widows were subsequently raped and sold into slavery.

Muhammad chose one Raihana Bint Amr as his concubine. Despite this poor woman having witnessed both her father and husband slaughtered before her eyes only hours before, Muhammad forced himself on her that night.

Muhammad taught: "Captive girls in war were made lawful for the soldiers for copulation"

Mishkat II, page 440.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
So...which of those connotations were you referring to? Notice that your quote mentions how they are "widely variant".

And how come you're not answering my question?

My answer to your question is "I believe so, yes".

Now are you going to answer my question?

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
But if you do, it's ok. Jesus made it so anything you do wrong is ok because he pardoned you.

You are totally confused. Jesus said "Go and sin no more". His pardon comes with a condition.